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JimfromSTL · Aug 24, 2009, 01:47 PM

My daughter recently bought a 1887 home in Denver. It has updated wiring - not sure when it was done, but its romex and seems to have been done at least within the last 20-30 years. I have a few questions...

1. The electric panel is located in her bathroom. While the panel is away from any direct water or splash potential - and is behind a separating wall (the bathroom is quite large - 15 x 15 at least), I do wonder about general condensation and other aspects of general dampness with regards to the panel in the bathroom location. Should it be moved? (of course money is a problem for her so if its okay then that is great).

2. The panel is a FPE 100 amp center. I would like to see it replaced with a newer load center - Siemens (who I work for) panel and breakers. If we (have an electrician) do this, can we just up the service to 150 or 200 without worry about any other aspects of the wiring? Do we need to get the any new cables run to the service entrance for the upgrade in amps?

3. If we do have to move the panel, can we just splice the wires in the current panel, close it in a water tight seal and then run all the wires to the new panel (which would be at least a room away or perhaps we could go down into the partical basement)? The other option would be to essentially keep the panel where it is but have it open on the other side of the wall - which is the kitchen. Again it would be away from any potential water but not the prettiest thing to have on your kitchen wall.

4. She has lath and plaster ceilings and walls on the first floor (drywall on the second). I have read lots of forum regarding the challenges running wire in lath and plaster, but any tips or techniques would be appreciated. I do want to change some of the rooms from a single overhead pull-chain light to one that is controlled by a switch.

thanks in advance.

regards

jim

buzzelec · Aug 24, 2009, 02:27 PM

1. No problum if away from water 6'
2. Need to replace the sub feed to 1/0 for 150A and 3/0 for 200A
3. you can splice the wires put pull box needs to be accessible.
4.Get a fiberglass stick and cut in boxes at homedepot.

donf · Aug 24, 2009, 02:34 PM

A few words of caution. First, is this a historical era home and if so are you allowed to make changes without authorization from the Historical Society?

Next, you cannot move the main panel without the permission of the local utility company. Also, you need to make sure that you comply with all the codes in place for a historical residence.

Please check with your Local Authority Having Jurisdiction or contact several Licensed electricians in your daughters area for bids and information.

Missouri Bound · Aug 24, 2009, 02:50 PM

It's a good idea to get rid of a FPE panel. Seimens makes a good product. (and I'll bet you get a discount) You need to contact the power company, as donf said for a couple of reasons, permission and verify that they actually have wires with adequate capacity going to your entrance head.

buzzelec · Aug 24, 2009, 03:38 PM

My comments are for a sub panel not the main panel

Missouri Bound · Aug 24, 2009, 04:22 PM

Did I miss something... was the question about a sub-panel?

stanfortyman · Aug 24, 2009, 04:23 PM

1) YES problem! I don't know when this panel was installed, or when the bathroom was put in, but you CANNOT have a panel in a bathroom. Period.
If it is there and she has a CO then this serious violation slipped under the radar. That said I would most definitely move it out of the bathroom.

2) To upgrade the panel you must upgrade the whole service. Forget 150A, 200A cost almost the same and is the same amount of work. A 200A service would require 2/0cu or 4/0al. This is a residence, you do NOT need 3/0cu. Your electrician will know all this.

Buzz, I don't know where you got the idea that this was a sub-feed. That was not mentioned.

3) I would simply flip it around into the kitchen and not mess around with splicing. I would NOT leave the box in the bathroom as a splice box.
I'm not sure where the proximity to water issue came about. This is NOT an issue. There is NO "6' rule" here. You just have to make sure working clearances are met. Again, your electrician will know what a suitable location is.

tkrussell · Aug 24, 2009, 06:12 PM

First of all... what Stan said.

Also no closets allowed.

Only issue in kitchen, or anywheres for that matter, need 30 inch wide by 36 in in front clearance.

MB is right, Siemens is a fine product, use it often.

Unless your ready for some real tough wiring an old home, have an electrician do this.

Old construction can be widely varied, with rocks in walls, to tree trunks as columns. And everything in between. A good electrician can "read" the exposed parts in basements and attic and "see" into walls and know where and where not to snake, and how to overcome obstacles.

There are three ways of dealing with plaster and lath, patch with drywall, re-plaster by an expert, or surface mount with Wiremold.

JimfromSTL · Aug 25, 2009, 04:34 AM

Thanks for the input... I don't think it's a subpanel but maybe I have to go look for a main panel... I agree with the AHJ guidance and I did check the historical district - okay on that front (as I will be doing some window replacement work as well)... the only definitive information I have so far on the rehab work on the house is that there was some renovation made by the VA in 1988. Don't what or how much - or what changed since but I do think the kitchen and bath were remodelled subsequently from the looks of things... now to find a electrician... thanks guys.

JimfromSTL · Aug 25, 2009, 04:36 AM

By the way - Stan - what is a CO? The house was inspected before she bought it but the placement of the panel was not mentioned - just that it was an FPE...

stanfortyman · Aug 25, 2009, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by JimfromSTL

btw - Stan - what is a CO?

I'm sorry. C of O. "Certificate of Occupancy".

Originally Posted by JimfromSTL

The house was inspected before she bought it but the placement of the panel was not mentioned - just that it was an FPE ...

You HAVE to be joking me. By a home inspector??
I would certainly go back to him and mention this. I'd be pretty ticked off.
That is a serious thing to "miss". If he didn't see it you could blame it on not being thorough, but this guy went so far as mention that it is FPE.

Unbelievable. I see WAY too many home inspectors who are nearly clueless about electrical, yet they are given the authority to write up defects. Sad, very sad.

JimfromSTL · Aug 25, 2009, 05:40 AM

Thanks... I think (:-))... she bought the house from a family that had been living there since 2003 (and I suspect they bought it from a flipper). As to the home inspector... missed a big shower leak as well (but is actually making good on getting it fixed)...

tkrussell · Aug 25, 2009, 06:20 AM

Amen:

Originally Posted by stanfortyman

You HAVE to be joking me. By a home inspector???
I would certainly go back to him and mention this. I'd be pretty ticked off.
That is a serious thing to "miss". If he didn't see it you could blame it on not being thorough, but this guy went so far as mention that it is FPE.

Unbelievable. I see WAY too many home inspectors who are nearly clueless about electrical, yet they are given the authority to write up defects. Sad, very sad.

Home inspectors have FPE in their playbook as being something to look for and report on. I don't all excited about FPE, other than trying to find a circuit breaker to add a new circuit.

Having a panel in a bathroom is a big deal, but not on home inspectors radar, as it is not a typical problem, and they rarely read the entire NEC code.

hkstroud · Aug 25, 2009, 06:47 AM

Home inspectors give you an opinion, nothing more. Their report is a negotiating instrument only.

I'll match my home inspector against your home inspector any day.

You could call it, "A battle of wits between two unarmed opponents"

JimfromSTL · Aug 25, 2009, 09:00 AM

Based on the answers you guys have provided - and coupled with the fact I am pretty sure the panel is too far from the metered entrance - this is probably a very dubious installation.

Is it possible / legal (subject to final AHJ review) to have an outside panel box for a residential site? My concern is that the external wall with the meter backs to the shower (bathroom in general) and I am not sure if there will be any other rational inside location for the panel...

JimfromSTL · Aug 25, 2009, 10:28 AM

Never mind... I think I have found out what I needed about the less-than-good idea about an outdoor panel box. Time to move on to a on-site electrician. Thanks for all the help.

KISS · Aug 25, 2009, 01:53 PM

CO - Bet it stands for Certificate of Occupancy

You might want to check out some lighting panels. Wireless Lighting control products

Could cut down wiring and add some options. There is some emerging technologies that may exist where wireless does not mean batteries. There is a very new technology called "energy harvesting" that you may be hearing more about. The simple nature of moving a switch is enough to generate a tiny amount of electricity for a wireless transmitter.

Note that the wireless transmitters are "self-powered", so it must use this technology.

JimfromSTL · Aug 25, 2009, 03:34 PM

Thanks...

JimfromSTL · Aug 26, 2009, 02:02 PM

Hey guys... first my apologies for implying anything bad about the home inspector... upon investigating whether the panel in the bathroom is or is not a subpanel, I have found a notation in the report that the "main breaker and meter" are located outside. Mea culpa.

But now for the clarification(s) - if the main breaker is outside does that mean that the distribution panel in the bathroom is a subpanel and would that then relate back to what Buzzelec indicated... that so long as the subpanel was 6' away from water, it is okay to be where it is. Stan's note seemed to say no type of panel would be acceptable, so I do want to make sure I am not being selective in my understanding.

stanfortyman · Aug 26, 2009, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by JimfromSTL

But now for the clarification(s) - if the main breaker is outside does that mean that the distribution panel in the bathroom is a subpanel and would that then relate back to what Buzzelec indicated ... that so long as the subpanel was 6' away from water, it is okay to be where it is. Stan's note seemed to say no type of panel would be acceptable, so I do want to make sure I am not being selective in my understanding.

Sub-panel or not, Buzz was incorrect.
There is NO 6' rule. You are simply not allowed breakers in a bathroom. Period.