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sndbay · Aug 11, 2009, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Maggie 3

Notice in this passage Jesus spoke of two baptism, one already experienced and the
other future; thus carefully making it clear that the baptism with the Holy Ghost is not baptism with water but a totally different experience.
Maggie 3

Maggie, I trust this also shows how God holds the power to bring forward what was, and is HIS will being done.

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

N0help4u · Aug 11, 2009, 10:52 AM

I think if the church doesn't accept your water immersion baptism it is because it is THEIR doctrine they are emphasizing rather than your heart being right with God

JoeT777 · Aug 11, 2009, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

I think if the church doesn't accept your water immersion baptism it is because it is THEIR doctrine they are emphasizing rather than your heart being right with God

Why? What do you base this on.

N0help4u · Aug 11, 2009, 01:35 PM

Based on that God isn't about Churches doctrines. Do you see anywhere in the Bible where it says you need to get rebaptized if you go to join another church?

JoeT777 · Aug 11, 2009, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Based on that God isn't about Churches doctrines. Do you see anywhere in the Bible where it says you need to get rebaptized if you go to join another church?

I wasn't referring to 'rebaptism,' I would argue against it.

JoeT777 · Aug 11, 2009, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by sndbay

Do you think they may not believe in three being ONE? I find it strange, rather then by the doctrine of Christ.

I thought you once said baptism wasn’t necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven? If I’m correct then why do you refer to ‘doctrine of Christ?’ Do you see the contradition? If there is no need for baptism, then that is the doctrine of Christ.

JoeT

N0help4u · Aug 11, 2009, 02:04 PM

What else is there?

N0help4u · Aug 11, 2009, 02:06 PM

I don't think you answered my other question. Say somebody comes to God and repents and all then he is going to get baptised next week but he is in a fatal accident what do you think happens to him? Is God's arm so short he can not save?

I am not saying baptism is not important but I believe that God knows your heart and intent

galveston · Aug 11, 2009, 02:20 PM

#7 in the OP.

Obviously, the thief who repented (on the cross) could not be baptised, but was promised Paradise. There must be oppportunity.

Unless I have been mis informed, it was required for a Rabbi to be baptised by a Priest (High Priest?) before he began his ministry. This would explain the baptism of John as it relates to Jesus. John's baptism was unto repentance, while NT baptism signifies a completed work in the life of the believer.

The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a subsequent experience to salvation.

In the new birth, the Life of Christ enters the believer, and if nurtured by the believer will eventually choke out the old (sinful) life.

The beilievr is expected to refrain from sin. However, John writes these words to all believers:

I Jn 2:1
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(KJV) (emphasis mine)

JoeT777 · Aug 11, 2009, 03:52 PM

If baptism isn't necessary then how do we explain away what Christ said to Nicodemus, "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." I don't see much wiggle room.

JoeT

N0help4u · Aug 11, 2009, 03:58 PM

I told you being born again of the water and the spirit is a spiritual thing Jesus was referring to and the actual baptism is ceremonial to testify to your inner rebirth.

You get baptised because you desire to follow Jesus and it is an outward sign.

Its not that baptism isn't necessary to follow but that baptism itself does not save you.

arcura · Aug 11, 2009, 09:56 PM

I think that three immersions taking place during baptism is a symbol ot the three person of the trinity.
I only witness it one time and have been to many baptisms during my 76 years here.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Maggie 3 · Aug 11, 2009, 11:04 PM

JoeT777
Baptism is a spiril experience and its effect is power in our life. The keynote of baptism
With the Holy Spirit was to be power. This was a different kind of power than they had
Received when they first believed on Him. "As many as received Him, to them gave
He power to become the sons of God" ( John 1;12) This is power received through
Conversion. It is the power of legal right or authoriry to become something:
In this case, a son or daughter of God. In Acts 1;8 Jesus spoke of a different power.
In the Greek, this word used by Jesus is "dunamis" meaning dynamite." Ye shell receive
power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and shall be witnesses unto me both
in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria and unto the uttermost parts of the
earth." This particular kind of power-the power of enablement-is present in some degree in both conversion and sanctification. Its fullness, however, is received after the baptism
With the Holy Ghost has become an integral part of one's life and one continues to walk in the Spirit. It is a power that enables one to become like Jesus in a dimension that is
Not possible before receiving the Holy Gost. First, it is an explosive power to witness
Not of something but of a person, the Lord Jesus Jesus Christ said, "Ye shall be
witnesses of ME". Second, it is a power to be a witnesses wherever one is.
He doesn't have to "go" somewhere in order to witness-he is a witness anywhere he is.
The power of enablement is what the disciples wanted. Christ's physical presence
With them had generated this kind of power. At times they had healed the sick, cast
Out devils, won men to their Lord and done His great works. But this power was a fleeting experience in there lives. They had not been able to maintain the dynamics of it.
Then came the promise of the Lord, "Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost
is come upon you."

Blessings, Maggie 3

sndbay · Aug 12, 2009, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by galveston

In the new birth, the Life of Christ enters the believer, and if nurtured by the believer will eventually choke out the old (sinful) life.

The beilievr is expected to refrain from sin. However, John writes these words to all believers:

I Jn 2:1
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
(KJV) (emphasis mine)

So true!

This is why baptism should be done once you confess belief in Christ with all your heart. Baptism is the putting on of Christ (Gal 3:27) who will dwell within you in righteousness. And why we are told to sin no more, because Christ does not dwell in sin. You are baptized being buried into death with Christ (Romans 6:4)

1 Corinthains 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

sndbay · Aug 12, 2009, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by JoeT777

I thought you once said baptism wasn't necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

JoeT

Joe, we must not judge, or prevent the soul of man. (1 Th 4:15) Because we do not know their hearts and what was intentional and not intentional. I trust those "asleep in Christ" are in question by what was taught to them, and not by what they followed, if it is indeed Christ they held in confession of Faith.

Those dead in Christ are raise first (1 Th 4:16), and they are those that are baptized, that do confessed Faith in One Lord One Faith One Baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 4:5-6)

I have continued to say that it is the Law of Faith, holding in ONE LORD One FAITH One BAPTISM, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

We know the will of God was for all to come unto HIM, and God has shown how HE brings forth HIS will to be done.
1 Cr 10:1-2-3-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The hope for all in Christ
1 Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

sndbay · Aug 12, 2009, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Its not that baptism isn't necessary to follow but that baptism itself does not save you.

Knowledge in doing the will of God, or being obedient to HIS will is necessary. And scripture does say that Baptism NOW doth also save us.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

However, to question the final judgement for eternal life concerning anyone, this should not be done.
We are servants in Christ, and as Christ told HIS disciples, the last shall be first and the first last: for many are called, but few chosen.
Not all do the same path in life, but what of that which is within the heart of "Faith" and not on what your flesh body did, or is doing, or has done.

An dividual can be as that man next to Christ on the cross, who confessed faith, and it was at his last moment of life.

Was he baptized? probably not, but was he circumcised by the law of God? Who knows.. Did he show that he was circumcised of the heart? YES

Is this man shown to be one of the last in a multitude of men to answer God's call? YES

paraclete · Aug 12, 2009, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by JoeT777

Baptism of John, “preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins”

Versus

Baptism of Christ, " baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost"

On another thread concerning baptism a few interesting questions came up:

1) Did Jesus' baptism have the same effect as John's baptism?
2) Would John's baptism meet the requirements of your Church?
3) Was John's baptism salvific? Would the recipients of John's baptism need to be re-baptized?
4) Was John's baptism related to the Old Testament TaNaKH, a Jewish immersion?
5) What are the effects of the New Testament baptism?
6) As a norm is it possible to enter heaven (the Kingdom of God) without a literal baptism?
7) What are exceptions to the norm?
8) Does baptism make the recipient a member in the body Church?
9) If the baptized individual changes denominations, is the individual re-baptized?
10) Can I have multiple baptisms? If so why? If not why?

One more question, do you see any element connecting the response to these question one to the other.

JoeT

1) Did Jesus' baptism have the same effect as John's baptism?
2) Would John's baptism meet the requirements of your Church?
3) Was John's baptism salvific? Would the recipients of John's baptism need to be re-baptized?
I think the Bible makes it plain (Acts) that John's Baptism isn't sufficient for the Christian
4) Was John's baptism related to the Old Testament TaNaKH, a Jewish immersion?
quite probably, it is a ritual repentance or entering into something new
5) and following
What are the effects of the New Testament baptism?
New Testament Baptism is a public acknowledgement of Christ and that you are dead to all that has gone before. Some Churches might baptise you into their church and in such an instance you should be rebaptised if you go to a new church but as a general rule you only need one immersion Baptism. Baptism isn't necessary for Salvation but to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven isn't just a future thing but also the here and now. It is symbolic of leaving the Kingdom of Satan and entering the Kingdom of Heaven.You can be rebaptised if you feel you have fallen away and need to make a new commitment at that level but generally repentance is what is required. You might want the symbolic death to sin again

arcura · Aug 14, 2009, 09:20 PM

Wow,
What a load of questions.
My answer is what I believe and that is that infants should be baptized and that one baptism, if does properly, is enough.
Also that baptism by itself does not save, but baptism is necessary fro salvation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT · Sep 8, 2009, 06:55 PM

Fred,

Is this a catholic belief that baptism is necessary for salvation? Just curious.

classyT · Sep 8, 2009, 07:22 PM

) Did Jesus' baptism have the same effect as John's baptism?
2) Would John's baptism meet the requirements of your Church?
3) Was John's baptism salvific? Would the recipients of John's baptism need to be re-baptized?
4) Was John's baptism related to the Old Testament TaNaKH, a Jewish immersion?
5) What are the effects of the New Testament baptism?
6) As a norm is it possible to enter heaven (the Kingdom of God) without a literal baptism?
7) What are exceptions to the norm?
8) Does baptism make the recipient a member in the body Church?
9) If the baptized individual changes denominations, is the individual re-baptized?
10) Can I have multiple baptisms? If so why? If not why?

One more question, do you see any element connecting the response to these question one to the other.

JoeT,

I will attempt to answer these questions or most of them anyway. I know you are chompin at the bit to know what I think. ;)

1. No. The baptism of John was not the same as Jesus. When someone is baptized as a believer in Christ.. it is symbolic of the Lord's death, burial and resurrection. It is an outward expression of an inward change.

2. No. Johns baptism was to repent for the kindgom of God was at hand. He had no knowledge that the Lord Jesus would have to die and be resurrected. It doesn't stand for the same thing.

3. Only if those that John baptized accepted the Lord as their savior, Yes they would need to be re baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

4. Not sure. John Baptized so that people could repent from their sinful living. He preached the gospel of the Kingdom. That is not the same gospel that we preach this side of the cross.

5. It is a step of obedience to the Lord and it shows the world you want to die to your flesh and live for the Lord Jesus

6 &7 I absolutely believe that there will be people in heaven who never got baptized. Salvation comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Sometimes a person may be saved all alone and has no time for someone to baptise them. Or perhaps doesn't understand they should be baptised . Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. It is NOT a requirement for salvation. But is something the Lord ask that we do for him.

8. The only thing baptism does is to express to the world that you belong to Jesus and want to live for him. You became part of the body of Christ the day you received him as lord and savior. This action has nothing to do with what church you attend or whether you are a member and you do NOT become part of the body of Christ during baptism.. that was already done.

9. If you were baptised by true believers after you accepted the Lord Jesus as your savior and you understood what you were doing... no you do not need to be baptized again.

10 I see nowhere in the word where multiple baptisms are necessary. The only time I would have it re done is if I didn't understand it the first time because I was a small child or maybe the church had wrong doctrine... like didn't believe Jesus WAS God. Something of that nature. Otherwise 1 baptism oughtta do you.