[N0help4u]

If you don't believe your transgressions are forgiven then you do not agree with Bible verses that say Jesus took all our sins and God forgives our sins?

[JoeT777]

Do you believe the Word of scripture written in post #16?

Yes, but I don't see the relevance to the question how you view “freed from sin”. I think this is because there is a fundamental difference in how we view original sin and the efficacies of baptism.

JoeT

[JoeT777]

If you don't believe your transgressions are forgiven then you do not agree with Bible verses that say Jesus took all our sins and God forgives our sins?

I didn't say sins couldn't be forgiven. I interpreted the remarks to say that once baptized transgressions were no longer held accountable - once saved always saved.

JoeT

[N0help4u]

You still have to ask for forgiveness and learn from your mistakes and your sins.
Its not an EZ pass of once saved always saved.

[JoeT777]

The fundamental difference in understanding that no man can enter the Kingdom of God until he has been baptized is found in the 'once saved always saved' reading of 'freed from sin'. Catholics hold that Romans 5 that original sin, “sin entered into this world and by sin death; and so passed upon all men” is how man is dead (man being both body and soul – a dead man is a man dead physically as well as having a soul that is dead – not in communion with God [that is “sin death = spiritual death]). Romans 6 shows how that original sin becomes dead in man through Christ, “old man is crucified with him” (the “old man” being the man with original sin and as such is dead). Lastly, we have Romans 7 which Paul tells us what is left after baptism, (a redemption from the consequences of sin, i.e. death), is concupiscence, “But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.” Concupiscence is a strong desire to sin. Our redemption is in the formation of the conscience overcoming that desire to sin which derives its creation in the graces bestowed in baptism. Sanctifiaction is dervied in the fight against concupisence, if not then there is no free will. So, where is 'once saved always saved'?

JoeT

[N0help4u]

You just summed it up and there is no once saved always saved in the sense you are speaking of.

[JoeT777]

You just summed it up and there is no once saved always saved in the sense you are speaking of.

As I recall, you were a proponent of “once saved always saved?”

Regardless, am I right to presume that a physical baptism is a must?

JoeT

[N0help4u]

No I was not a proponent once saved always saved.

I was a if your name is written in the book of life God isn't erasing it BUT MANY people CLAIM they are saved when possibly they are not. Therefore their once saved doesn't apply.

Like you buy a counterfit ticket for an event.
You go to the event and you find out you were wrong. You NEVER had a legitimate ticket to begin with.

So as I said in the sense you are using once saved always saved NOPE I do not believe in once saved always saved.

[sndbay]

What I trust in all that is written is the worthyness of Christ, and the truth of what HE brought to us.

The sufficiency of Christ's body and blood is far more then what most men can comprehend, because of the enormous, the vast, the huge, the immense greatness that God is.
As written, God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.

It is also written refer: Eph 3:17-19 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

In the beginning of creation, we were as written refer: Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

This was what was before Adam, and NOW we are again begotten in Christ to the liberty of choice, to walk in the spirt and not the lust of flesh.

Comprehend the reality of the valued life and death in what our Father has giving in HIS begotten Son to die for us.

We can again be in the likeness of what we once were created to be. "IF" we hold to ONE LORD...ONE FAITH...ONE BAPTISM One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Is it possible to sin or be beguiled by satan? YES
That is what Paul said was his fear.

[JoeT777]

What I trust in all that is written [in scripture] is the worthiness of Christ, and the truth of what HE brought to us.

As I trust in the infallible Magisterium of the Church to teach the truths the Apostles taught that are found therein.

The sufficiency of Christ's body and blood is far more then what most men can comprehend, because of the enormous, the vast, the huge, the immense greatness that God is.
As written, God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.

Believing in the sufficiency of Christ's body and the truth found in Scripture then too we can believe in Christ's words, “except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. ” (John 6: 54 sqq) What's of concern here isn't God's frightful omnipotence, His omnipresence, the vastness, the bigness, His perfect justice, but rather our impotence, our absence of faith, our lecherousness, covetousness, our cupidity, that hinders his real presence found in scripture.

It is also written refer: Eph 3:17-19 That Christ mIn the promise also of God he staggered not by distrust: but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God:ay dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.


In the promise also of God he staggered not by distrust: but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God: Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

But also for us, to whom it shall be reputed, if we believe in him that raised up Jesus Christ, our Lord, from the dead, (Romans 6:24)

In the promise also of God he staggered not by distrust: but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God: In the beginning of creation, we were as written refer: Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [/QUOTE]
And that promise can't be realized without being “born again of water and the Holy Ghost”.

We can again be in the likeness of what we once were created to be. "IF" we hold to ONE LORD...ONE FAITH...ONE BAPTISM One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. ...That is what Paul said was his fear

Pope John Paul II said "fear not;"all is accomplished through the body and blood of Christ offered daily.


JoeT

[JoeT777]

Like you buy a counterfit ticket for an event.
You go to the event and you find out you were wrong. You NEVER had a legitimate ticket to begin with.

I like that analogy, at least on some levels I can agree with you.

JoeT

[sndbay]

Joe, Have you intended damage to my posting by the quote done in #30 shown differently then what was posted in #29 ?


Post #29

We can again be in the likeness of what we once were created to be. "IF" we hold to ONE LORD...ONE FAITH...ONE BAPTISM One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Is it possible to sin or be beguiled by satan? YES
That is what Paul said was his fear.

[JoeT777]

Joe, Have you intended damage to my posting by the quote done in #30 shown differently then what was posted in #29 ?


Post #29

Not exactly, it's called using an ellipsis ( … ). Ellipses are used (among other things) to indicate omitted words in a quotation It's a common practice to remove lesser important comments to avoid excessively long citations. I didn't wish to address the intervening comments so I didn't include them. Plus there was a link to your comment. It would be obvious to any casual reader that there was no intent to misquote you. BUT, be that as it may, I apologize if you took it that way.

JoeT

[JoeT777]

Fr_Chuck, et al:

I was poking around on the internet and ran into, The Great Catechism (Part III, The Sacraments) by St. Gregory of Nyssa; circa 380 A.D. I thought that when you came up for a breath you might appreciate that a trine baptism may have been widely used in various regions. “But the descent into the water, and the trine immersion of the person in it, involves another mystery. For since the method of our salvation was made effectual not so much by His precepts in the way of teaching as by the deeds of Him Who has realized an actual fellowship with man, and has effected life as a living fact, so that by means of the flesh which He has assumed, and at the same time deified , everything kindred and related may be saved along with it, it was necessary that some means should be devised by which there might be, in the baptismal process, a kind of affinity and likeness between him who follows and Him Who leads the way. Needful, therefore, is it to see what features are to be observed in the Author of our life, in order that the imitation on the part of those that follow may be regulated, as the Apostle says, after the pattern of the Captain of our salvation.”

After a little more poking around I found that a trine immersion may have been practiced by the Apostles. Tertullian (De Corona 3), St. Basil (On the Holy Spirit 27), St. Jerome (Against the Luciferians 8), all write of similar practices. However, while adding much the same St. Thomas Aquinas in his The Summa Theologica reminds us that one immersion has been ordained by the Church.

“Whether trine immersion is essential to Baptism?: On the contrary, Gregory wrote to the Bishop Leander: "It cannot be in any way reprehensible to baptize an infant with either a trine or a single immersion: since the Trinity can be represented in the three immersions, and the unity of the Godhead in one immersion."

“I answer that, as stated above washing with water is of itself required for Baptism, being essential to the sacrament: whereas the mode of washing is accidental [essentially inherent] to the sacrament. Consequently, as Gregory in the words above quoted explains, both single and trine immersion are lawful considered in themselves; since one immersion signifies the oneness of Christ's death and of the Godhead; while trine immersion signifies the three days of Christ's burial, and also the Trinity of Persons.”

“But for various reasons, according as the Church has ordained, one mode has been in practice, at one time, the other at another time. For since from the very earliest days of the Church some have had false notions concerning the Trinity, holding that Christ is a mere man, and that He is not called the "Son of God" or "God" except by reason of His merit, which was chiefly in His death; for this reason they did not baptize in the name of the Trinity, but in memory of Christ's death, and with one immersion. And this was condemned in the early Church. Wherefore in the Apostolic Canons (xlix) we read: "If any priest or bishop confer baptism not with the trine immersion in the one administration, but with one immersion, which baptism is said to be conferred by some in the death of the Lord, let him be deposed": for our Lord did not say, "Baptize ye in My death," but "In the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

"Later on, however, there arose the error of certain schismatics and heretics who rebaptized: as Augustine (Super. Joan., cf. De Haeres. lxix) relates of the Donatists. Wherefore, in detestation of their error, only one immersion was ordered to be made, by the (fourth) council of Toledo, in the acts of which we read: "In order to avoid the scandal of schism or the practice of heretical teaching let us hold to the single baptismal immersion."

From St. Thomas's quote we can safely extrapolate that two immersions would not be permitted. I don't have any direct knowledge, but would imagine the Church today accepts trine baptism, although it doesn't appear to be common. You certainly don't hear much of it around here - and I live in the land of the Baptist. So, the next time I speak out with a provincial ignorance it would be appreciated if you would help remove the foot from my mouth.

JoeT

[Maggie 3]

Acts 1:4&5 Qnce when He was eating with them, He told them not to leave Jerusalem.
He said, "Wait here to receive the promise from the Father which I told you about. John baptized people with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit".
Notice in this passage Jesus spoke of two baptism, one already experienced and the
Other future; thus carefully making it clear that the baptism with the Holy Ghost is not baptism with water but a totally different experience.
Acts 1:8 He began His instructions by reminding them that even before His crucifixion
He had told them that they were to receive the promise of the father which is the
Baptism with the Holy Spirit. He had promised that the Holy Spirit would come to fill the
Void created by His being no longer with them in the flesh, and that in the Spirt He
Would be even closer to them after His earthly departure. In a real and wonderful
Way this than if Jesus remained physically with them and they continued to see, hear,
Touch or converse with Him in the flesh. The reason for this was that they would receive
Power after the Holy Spirit had come upon them.

Here is a part of the answer.
Blessing,

Maggie 3

[arcura]

Joe,
In a Catholic Church in northwestern Montana I and others witness a baptism of a child who was dunked three times with the priest saying "In the name of the Father (dunk), The son (dunk) and the Holy Spirit (dunk).
I did not question it. Rather I thought it was a neat way to do it.
Also I do firmly believe that baptism by itself does not save but it is necessary if one it to be saved with an also necessary working faith and the grace of God.
I was baptized in a Lutheran ceremony. 35 years later when I became a Catholic I was told that the Lutheran baptism was licit and therefore a second baptism was not necessary.
However, I could have been, but the priest would then say during the ceremony. "Fred, if you are not properly baptized, I baptize you in the name of the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit."
I opted not to have a second baptism for it was not necessary.
I do find it very interesting the confusion concerning baptism in various denominations.
In the 30,000 + denominations out there I wonder how many different baptisms that there are when I and many others believe that there is only one way (in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) that is valid.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Maggie: I agree, one of the primary purposes of the New Testament baptism is for a spiritual connection with the Holy Spirit. A joining, as it were, in spirit with God.

Fred: I had never heard of 3 immersions at a baptism (that's why I find them so unique), but of course all of the baptisms I've ever attended (most of which were for infants) were Catholic and were poured over a fount. I have built Southern Baptist Churches in the past. Large pools with steps were installed behind the podium for an immersion to take place – but I never witnessed one. I understood these baptisms were single immersions.


JoeT

[N0help4u]

Three immersions aren't in the Bible.
People do that on their own for their own reasons/purposes

[sndbay]

As I trust in the infallible Magisterium of the Church to teach the truths the Apostles taught that are found therein.


Believing in the sufficiency of Christ's body and the truth found in Scripture then too we can believe in Christ's words, “except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me: and I in him. ” (John 6: 54 sqq) What's of concern here isn't God's frightful omnipotence, His omnipresence, the vastness, the bigness, His perfect justice, but rather our impotence, our absence of faith, our lecherousness, covetousness, our cupidity, that hinders his real presence found in scripture.

JoeT

His real presence found within the book John was told to eat in Revelation so that he would prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings according to the Word that was made Flesh to walk on earth.


Different thread...but I will reply
The Catholic church gives the glory to a different rock, so is their spiritual drink and meat that of their rock?

1 Cr 10:1-2-3-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

[sndbay]

Three immersions aren't in the Bible.
People do that on their own for their own reasons/purposes

Do you think they may not believe in three being ONE? I find it strange, rather then by the doctrine of Christ.