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ordinaryguy · Oct 22, 2006, 09:42 PM

During 18 years of marriage my wife would periodically fly into a rage, and without warning launch a verbal attack on me so sudden and viscious it would leave me utterly devastated. It felt like being kicked in the stomach. The "reason" was always something relatively trivial, just as likely to be something I hadn't done as something I did. This happened on average maybe once or twice a year. It would take me a matter of days to work through the emotional trauma and regain some kind of composure. Sometimes afterward she would cry and say how sorry she was. In between these episides, she was loving, kind and generous. After every episode I managed to convince myself that these fits of rage were anomalies that didn't reflect her true feelings. About four years ago it started to happen more frequently, until finally it was happening once or twice a month. I told her I couldn't stand it any more and asked her to go with me for counselling. She declined, but did get a prescription for an antidepressant which seemed to help for awhile. Then it happened again, and something inside me just sort of gave up. I admitted to myself that this rage was an integral part of her personality, and would likely remain so for the rest of her life. About this time I also started to experience intermittent erectile dysfunction. When I suggested that maybe I should see a doctor about it, she said "Don't bother, I haven't been interested in years". That was two and a half years ago and we haven't had sex since. I'm mostly beyond anger and blame now, and I feel like I have forgiven her, but emotionally I still don't trust her. Is it possible to forgive, but still not trust, or does the lack of trust mean I haven't really forgiven her? It's bad enough having to give up sex, but the lack of intimacy is what's hardest to bear. We get along OK on a practical level, but the juice has gone out of our relationship. The curious thing is that since we stopped being intimate, she hasn't had a single fit of rage. I don't know how to interpret this, and I really don't know how to improve the situation. Any ideas?

aqua@home · Oct 23, 2006, 05:14 PM

Hi, first let me say that this is very sad.

To get to your question... I think it is definitely possible to forgive without trusting. We can forgive, but we can't always forget, nor should we. You have forgiven her and that has probably healed you and helped you. I wouldn't trust her with my feelings at all. She is unwilling to go to counselling or do anything to help your situation. It is one thing to have an amicable relationship, but it is completely different to be in a marriage without intimacy. I think it is human nature to want to be close with your spouse, sex is important too. I can relate to being verbally beaten and I know how hard it is to recover from that.

As far as I can see, maybe she has a personal problem with intimacy. You stated that things haven't been as heated now that the intimacy has stopped. Maybe she has a past experience that is too painful for her to share? This is a possibility and maybe that is why she is declining any counselling. Maybe she is not ready to deal with something that is bothering her?

Just a thought, I hope I'm not too far base. I wish you and your wife all the best.

valinors_sorrow · Oct 23, 2006, 06:20 PM

I think Aqua's post said some really caring and important things. I also offer my condolences for your situation. I came from a really dysfunctional family and so I can tell you its possible to both love and forgive someone who is profoundly untrustworthy. It just means you don't let your guard down and you don't get to experience many things you would if they were not sick. It also, for me, meant I had to periodically grieve a what-might-have-been loss. It was necessary in order to remain in any contact at all with them.

As I grew up, I left my family and the one who was untrustworthy (due to mental illness) has now died. But I can say looking back that I have been very careful who I select to spend my time with. I needed to be with people who are available to me, emotionally especially.

If you plan on staying in the marriage, you might need to see a professional yourself. Who knows, maybe if she sees you go to the counselor and survive, she may change her mind. I wouldn't pressure her though. At the very least, I can see you needing more support from others in order to sustain the loss your arrangement is creating, otherwise you could very likely set yourself up as a target for an affair.

The only other path I can think of is if she has a doctor, minister, someone respected she is close to that you might turn to for some help too. I really would like to see her go with you to the professional but it may need to be an idea from someone else's mouth, you know what I mean?

I hope you find us helpful. Thanks for posting.

Stysmomof3 · Oct 23, 2006, 07:00 PM

Intimacy is so important in marriage even if it is purely emotional, honest and yet still vulnerable. I am sorry for your situation but, if you are only comfortable with no passion and satisfaction in your marriage that would cause me to wonder about the future?

Sara

ordinaryguy · Oct 24, 2006, 04:48 AM

Thank you all for your responses. It does help to have someone else's perspective on the situation. I think she probably does have secrets that she's unwilling to share. If she's upset and I ask what's wrong, her standard response is "I don't want to talk about it". And she's not kidding. Continuing to probe only makes her angry, so I quit that strategy a long time ago. At some point I may try again to get her to go with me for counselling, and if she won't, go by myself. I know I can't find a solution that doesn't involve her, but just talking through it with someone might ease the pain, and that's worth something.

valinors_sorrow · Oct 24, 2006, 05:35 AM

ordinaryguy agrees: I'm trying to figure out this rating/comment system. On the forum help board there's references to the "comment on this post" button, but I don't see one.

Well apparently you found how to do it since you "commented on this post" or "rated Aqua's answer" LOL It's all the same thing -- you can agree and give out a greenie (which you did to Aqua) or you can disagree and give out a reddie. They accumulate and show up by your user name. Do you see how I have four greenies to the far right here? I recently acquired one when I went over the 300 points mark. Greenies add points, reddies subtract. You can see the total points and the details of the most recent ratings/comments at the bottom of any person's profile. Just click on a member name and then "view public profile" and scroll down.

s_cianci · Oct 28, 2006, 11:39 AM

Frankly, I'd have been out the door a long time ago (or, better yet, thrown her a_s out the door and changed the locks.) Verbal/emotional abuse is just as bad as, and sometimes worse than physical abuse. No one has the right to dish it out and no one is ever obliged to tolerate this. Unfortunately I think some of your other respondents are just enabling her behavior by rationalizing.

talaniman · Oct 28, 2006, 02:10 PM

You've been married 18 years so how old are you. We humans do go through a big change as the hormones change that signal mid life. Just a thought.

J_9 · Oct 28, 2006, 02:25 PM

I am wondering if she may have bi-polar disorder.

Yes there are hormonal considerations too, but this

would periodically fly into a rage, and without warning launch a verbal attack on me so sudden and viscious

As well as this

Sometimes afterward she would cry and say how sorry she was. In between these episides, she was loving, kind and generous.

Makes me think of bi-polar disorder.

Maybe a trip to her doctor is in order.

ordinaryguy · Oct 29, 2006, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

You've been married 18 years so how old are you. We humans do go thru a big change as the hormones change that signal mid life. Just a thought.

I'm 60, she's 55, and we've been married for 20 years. Hormones may have had something to do with the increase in frequency beginning 3 or 4 years ago, but I don't think that can explain a pattern that has been in place for so many years. We were friends and co-workers for 10 years before we got married, but it only started after. That, and the fact that it stopped after we stopped being intimate makes me lean toward the secret fear of intimacy theory. Believe me, I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out why, but what I finally came to is that for me, that isn't really the question. That's her question, if and when she ever decides to seek an answer. The question for me is how do I respond, and for the last 2+ years, the answer has been to put enough emotional distance between us to protect myself. It's not a perfect solution, and it probably won't work indefinitely, but it has worked, in the sense that the verbal beatings have stopped. For now, that's enough. For the future, I don't know. I'm taking it one day at a time.

Sentra · Oct 29, 2006, 11:25 AM

Menopause can magnify the emotional wellbeing of a woman, be it rage, happiness, anger, joy, is it that? I wish you MUCH luck, friend.

valinors_sorrow · Oct 29, 2006, 11:31 AM

Part of the problem may be that you have adapted to it instead of nipped it in the bud and now that you have some much time invested in your marriage, its hard to conceive of it ending. I can certainly appreciate that. I do get the sense that the only way this can be affected is if you own that you cannot live like this and insist she go see someone fifteen minutes before you walk out the door for good. I mean no disrespect but otherwise, she has in essence (meaning to or not) trained you well. She will either wake up and see the risk in her behavior and change or you will be on your own with the chance at a full relationship somewhere down the road.

In the end, only you can decide what is worth what in this equation.

talaniman · Oct 29, 2006, 02:53 PM

I applaud your coping skills but for now your okay to deal with this problem but how long before your tired of it? You will I think have to deal with this directly one day, so pick a goood time and good luck!

talaniman · Oct 29, 2006, 06:01 PM

This post haunts me as I've always held that honest communication can solve most problems. So my question is where is the communications? Also walking around waiting for some one to attack can't be fun at all. Putting myself in your shoes I think talking would be first and if no satisfaction is forth coming, time to go fishing for a few days just to remove myself from the stress and clear my own thoughts. I've been married 32 years and my wife just turned 50 so you bet I recognise when the hormones rage in my house, but to be afraid to talk about it is unthinkable and can lead to one hell of a resentment. Does she take meds or anything?

ordinaryguy · Oct 30, 2006, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

This post haunts me as I've always held that honest communication can solve most problems. so my question is where is the communications? Also walking around waiting for some one to attack can't be fun at all. Putting myself in your shoes I think talking would be first and if no satisfaction is forth coming, time to go fishing for a few days just to remove myself from the stress and clear my own thoughts. I've been married 32 years and my wife just turned 50 so you bet I recognise when the hormones rage in my house, but to be afraid to talk about it is unthinkable and can lead to one hell of a resentment. Does she take meds or anything?

Yes, communication is a wonderful thing, but both have to be willing and able to participate and contribute. The roots of this thing are pretty deep in her psyche, and I don't think she understands it well enough herself to be able to talk about it in a way that will lead to a resolution. She still takes an antidepressant, which may deserve some (most?) of the credit for two-plus years without an eruption. But based on our last real attempt to discuss it (a few months ago), I don't think she's any closer to understanding it for herself. She doesn't seem to like introspective thought, and I know for sure that trying to force her to discuss things she doesn't like to think about is counterproductive.

I should maybe say in response to this and other posts that our daily life isn't as bad as it might sound, especially since there haven't been any attacks for some time. We get along well on a practical level, we have a daughter and two grandchildren who live with us, a son away at college, friends and other family nearby, and a full and active life. Besides, I love her, and in spite of her unresolved anger issues, I'm sure she loves me. We did promise "For better and for worse, in sickness and in health", and we are keeping that promise. We didn't promise to honor and cherish each other only "as long as the sex is good and the emotional intimacy is satisfying". It's easy to say what you would or wouldn't put up with in a loved one, but loved ones have a way of being who they are, warts and all, and blowing them off because of the warts doesn't necessarily bring the satisfaction we think we're entitled to.

talaniman · Oct 30, 2006, 01:52 PM

Thanks for a much clearer picture, The advantage older more settled people have in dealing with conflict is probably less drama and more thought out solutions as well as an acceptance of who we are and who we love. She may never be able to talk about her problems, but if everything else is going well and it sounds like it is then be patient and loving and enjoy what you have and not make a problem bigger than what it should be. Being able to accept people for who they are is a blessing and not to be dismissed.

Latteeee · Oct 30, 2006, 06:00 PM

When isn't a wife not resposible for a husbands debt?

Latteeee · Oct 30, 2006, 06:03 PM

My husband is a chronic alcoholic, if he incurs debt, will I be held resposible, if is not compentent to pay?

aqua@home · Nov 3, 2006, 01:23 PM

Ordinaryguy... it sounds like you really love your wife. I guess as long as you are happy with the situation there probably isn't any advice you haven't received yet. You are two must be quite the couple to have stuck to your vows.

ordinaryguy · Nov 3, 2006, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by aqua@home

Ordinaryguy...it sounds like you really love your wife. I guess as long as you are happy with the situation there probably isn't any advice you haven't received yet. You are two must be quite the couple to have stuck to your vows.

Yes, I do love her, or it would have ended years ago. It isn't quite accurate to say I'm happy with the situation, but in spite of its limitations, I see the value in continuing it, so I suppose you could say I'm resigned without being bitter. I'm taking it as a lesson in how to continue loving through disappointment. It's not the lesson I would have preferred to be learning at this point in my life, but if preferences ruled, we'd probably miss the lessons we really need to learn. Every day that passes without a major eruption builds a little bit of hope, so I try to stay focused on that. And I do thank all of you for your kind and thoughtful responses. Sometimes, what we need more than a solution to our problem is a bit of understanding, and I feel like I've gotten that here, and I really do appreciate it.