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450donn · Aug 13, 2009, 10:50 AM

So, you are basing your argument on the fact that suicide is NOT murder? Is that what I am hearing from you?
So how do you rectify the multiple times in the Bible that God/Jesus speaks about murder or murdering a person?
Such as EX20:13, MT5;:21,MT 23;31, RO 1;29, NU 35:30, JN 8:44, AC28:4, or 1JN3:15.
You first have to reconcile in your mind whether suicide is considered murder. In my book it is. So I have a completely different prospective on the subject.
There then is the whole debate of defiling your body which no one has broached yet. Could suicide be considered defilement of your body?
See, there is no black or white on this subject, and no one will have a true answer until the day we stand before our Lord and God to answer for your works/deeds. But personally I would not want to take the chance, do you?

classyT · Aug 13, 2009, 11:08 AM

450donn,

There is NO sin that is not covered under the blood of Jesus Christ. It IS murder... and it is forgiveable. I don't understand why we put so many conditions on salvation.

N0help4u · Aug 13, 2009, 11:10 AM

People claim that when you kill yourself that you can't go back and repent and if you don't ask for forgiveness for every sin then God can't accept you.
Which I can and can't see, because you are either saved or you aren't

this8384 · Aug 13, 2009, 11:16 AM

We're not arguing that sin is or isn't forgiveable. But how can we be forgiven if we never say we're sorry?

450donn · Aug 13, 2009, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by classyT

450donn,

There is NO sin that is not covered under the blood of Jesus Christ. It IS murder....and it is forgiveable. I don't understand why we put so many conditions on salvation.

That is true. However how can you ask/seek forgiveness if you are dead? See, this whole debate boils down the which comes first, the chicken or the egg?

classyT · Aug 13, 2009, 11:59 AM

My sins are covered, past, present, future. I ask for forgivness because when I don't my relationship with the Lord Jesus suffers NOT my salvation. If me asking for forgivness every time I sinned was a requirement I can tell you right here and now... I have failed.. I WILL fail. Heck sometimes I don't even recognize some of the things I do as sin until the Holy Spirit enlightens me.

this8384 · Aug 13, 2009, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

My sins are covered, past, present, future. I ask for forgivness because when I don't my relationship with the Lord Jesus suffers NOT my salvation. If me asking for forgivness every time I sinned was a requirement I can tell you right here and now...i have failed..i WILL fail. Heck sometimes I don't even recognize some of the things I do as sin until the Holy Spirit enlightens me.

Accidentally sinning is not the same as making the choice to take your own life. In doing so, you are putting yourself in God's place by deciding who lives and who dies.

zippit · Aug 13, 2009, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by 450donn

There then is the whole debate of defiling your body which no one has broached yet. Could suicide be considered defilement of your body?

?

I did mention the body is a temple which is in the same context as defiling

classyT · Aug 13, 2009, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by this8384

Accidentally sinning is not the same as making the choice to take your own life. In doing so, you are putting yourself in God's place by deciding who lives and who dies.

I disagree with you. Sin is sin. My relationship with the Lord suffers when I refuse to confess my sins but they are ALL covered under the blood confessed and unconfessed. Believe me... I am sure I have unconfessed sin that I committed WILLINGLY in my life. I don't want there to be but I am a fallen creature. We could get in long debates about someone committing a terrible sin on purpose and then dying in a car crash with no time to repent or confess... they go to hell? Please . Salvation is by faith alone... I don't do anything to earn it... I can't do anything to keep it... it is a gift.

Suicide is a horrible horrible thing. It is a devastating terrible act... but the Lord Jesus forgives everything when we are IN CHRIST, Christ is IN us and we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us. We are sealed with his spirit and ain't nothing or nobody going to take that away!!

classyT · Aug 13, 2009, 02:10 PM

Incidentally consider the man in 1 corithians 5... he was living with his stepmother as his wife ( yuck, puke.. disgusting). Notice that Paul considers him SAVED. He wasn't confessing anything... HE eventually did but he wasn't not saved because he chose to live in a sinful lifestyle... he was excomunicated until he got his life back on track...

this8384 · Aug 13, 2009, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

incidently consider the man in 1 corithians 5....he was living with his stepmother as his wife ( yuck, puke..disgusting). Notice that Paul considers him SAVED. He wasn't confessing anything....HE eventually did but he wasn't not saved because he chose to live in a sinful lifestyle...he was excomunicated until he got his life back on track...

Where are you reading that Paul considers him saved?
BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: 1 Corinthians 5

Paul was saying that the man should have been excommunicated so that he would turn from his sin, as we are commanded to do in Matthew 18.

classyT · Aug 13, 2009, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by this8384

Where are you reading that Paul considers him saved?
BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: 1 Corinthians 5

Paul was saying that the man should have been excommunicated so that he would turn from his sin, as we are commanded to do in Matthew 18.

hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. 1 corinthians 5:5

I think it is pretty clear. The man was saved... but he was turned over to satan until he repented... the bible says there is pleasure in sin for a season. I've been there I have done it... and after satan got through with me I came crawling back. I have never ever lost my salvation. I have lost comunication with the Lord Jesus because how could I pray when I was doing things that were clearly wrong? I lost my fellowship never ever lost my salvation.

this8384 · Aug 13, 2009, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

I think it is pretty clear. the man was saved....but he was turned over to satan until he repented...the bible says there is pleasure in sin for a season. I've been there I have done it...and after satan got thru with me i came crawling back. I have never ever lost my salvation. I have lost comunication with the Lord Jesus because how could I pray when i was doing things that were clearly wrong? I lost my fellowship never ever lost my salvation.

You don't know if he was saved or not; only we and God know what is in our hearts.

When we choose to sin, we choose to separate ourselves from God. The only way to reconnect is through repentance and turning from our sin. Suicide doesn't allow for either of those.

Now, if someone is truly mentally incapable of understanding what they are doing, I don't believe God will hold them accountable. But when someone has the capacity to take the time to write out a goodbye letter, they know what they're doing and they're choosing what they want over what God wants.

Yes, life is hard. Some of us are stronger than others. But nothing is too hard for God. By saying that life is too hard to deal with is not placing your full faith in Christ and the sacrifice He made for you.

Flesh · Aug 13, 2009, 03:57 PM

I can not believe people are still talking about this... "The chicken or the egg"?? Another provision, another subtext? Are you reading the same book I do, if our acts in any way shape or form could make us saved or unsaved than Jesus' death was in vain, and he would not have risen into a new body, which was Gods way of saying it is done, my sons sacrifice was sufficient, God does not live in a timeline you are all thinking God has a mind like our own, he is all knowing, yesterday and today and tomorrow do not exist a moment is not a moment to God, when you accept Calavary you are saved by that alone, I will not allow you people to try and say there is another way to state that its possible or its this or maybe that, the Bible states it plain as day BY FAITH ALONE YOU SHALL BE SAVED, not by following the law, not by not sinning, and as for unforgiven sins, that is a mans thought you are using your mind in this temporal timeframe as to say that, but to God the moment you asked him to be with you through the blood of Christ it was done, now of course if you stop believing AKA REJECT THE HOLY SPIRIT, well that is the only unforgivable sin and if you think about it you will know why. I know that right now I could kill myself, I would be saved, it is where your heart/soul is at with God not how many sins you have confessed in the last 24 hours and which ones you haven't and if your remorseful or kind of on edge or struggling with God on an issue. This argument is the same one John had with the Jewish people, go read Corithians, go read Romans, go read every NT after the OG Gospels and you will see plain as day we are saved by Faith alone, no fine print, no ifs and or buts, no chicken before the egg, no I preposes, just Faith in Calvary.

450donn · Aug 13, 2009, 08:18 PM

Obviously you choose to only pick what you want to read. I did not make up the passages about murder that I gave you. So pick all you want. But the bottom line still is and always will be,
Are you prepared to play Russian roulette with your eternal soul by committing suicide and then hoping that you are on the right side of this debate?
I summed up this whole debate way back in my post number 4. If you have jumped into the middle of this discussion, please feel free to go back and reread what I said there.

classyT · Aug 14, 2009, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by this8384

You don't know if he was saved or not; only we and God know what is in our hearts.

When we choose to sin, we choose to separate ourselves from God. The only way to reconnect is through repentance and turning from our sin. Suicide doesn't allow for either of those.

Now, if someone is truly mentally incapable of understanding what they are doing, I don't believe God will hold them accountable. But when someone has the capacity to take the time to write out a goodbye letter, they know what they're doing and they're choosing what they want over what God wants.

Yes, life is hard. Some of us are stronger than others. But nothing is too hard for God. By saying that life is too hard to deal with is not placing your full faith in Christ and the sacrifice He made for you.

Paul said what he said. HE thought the guy was saved. Me? I didn't KNOW him. But I tend to trust PAUL. The Lord Jesus obviously did too. He wrote most of the new testament.

Only the Lord Jesus knows our hearts. Only the Lord Jesus knows who is his. He and only HE will separate the sheep from the goats. But I submit to you... if you are a SHEEP... there is nothing you can do to become a goat. You are either HIS or you aren't.

AGAIN, I base my answer not on how I feel... or what seems right. I base it on the Bible.

450Donn,

You know I love you... but my dear friend... you are WRONG. I do not think suicide is right... I think it horrible but once you are IN Christ nothing and nobody is going to take that away... ( anyone who commits suicide is NOT in their right mind anyway, )

Flesh · Aug 14, 2009, 05:38 AM

No sin is unpardonable, for one no I do not plan on playing russian roulette, there is no such game with God, he cleary states Faith in the Son destroys the sin that would be on us whether we are murdering or lying... are you choosing to believe in the "law" or in the "Son", I do believe repentance has to do with having a relationship with God and gaining the life he has planned for you, I do believe the attempt to not sin and the resistance of sin is special to God and that to have a good relationship with him is based on both these facts.. if you love me you will follow what I have said, he did not say if I love you I will save you, if you do not sin I will save you. He merely states time and time again that he will love you if you follow his teachings, but as far as saving goes you just have to believe, I know that probably is hard to swallow but that is all he ask, no act we commit will ever make us saved or unsaved, it says this again and again, what are you choosing to hear? You say you consider suicide murder... well I am glad your not God Don nor will you ever be, nor will your opinion ever hold sway over me, or mean more than what the apostle state all through those books you mentioned, there may be a handful of verses about murder, but there is nearly a whole book set upon how Faith has destroyed law, that the law condemed us it was against us, and that the Son came to destroy that law, Don I am sorry the god you believe in is not all forgiving and all powerful, because if he was you could not comprehend his actions, but the god you speak of seems very human to me, I could judge like your god, but my God I can not, I would say murder is an unforgivalbe sin, and I would also say the suicide is an unforgibable sin, I would say sleeping with a prostitute and lying to your wife about it is an unforgivable sin, but my God, he says no action but rejecting his gift is unforgivable. Don you are wrong, there is no unforgivable sin, you are wrong you do not have to ask for forgivness to be forgiven, that is simply for us, God knows we are forgiven he wants us to ask so we know, just like when he test you, he knows your limits, your strenghts and your weaknesses, but you do not. Abraham would have never known how much faith he had until the day God asked him to kill his son, than he knew. Don read the Bible stop judging by acts and by human standards realize the God in the Bible gave his only Son so that we were free of the curse of Sin and the overwhelming Justice of God. Jesus' blood covers a believer now, today, and tomorrow. Its seems to me you are choosing to read what you want, I did not read your passages because they are superceded (over-ruled) by the covenant I have with God through the blood of his son Jesus Christ.

same time post lol

classyT · Aug 14, 2009, 05:42 AM

Hey Flesh! :)

450donn · Aug 14, 2009, 08:39 AM

Well again you did not read my post Number 4 so I will reprint it here for you to read!
See, I look at it from another prospective. Murder is a sin and suicide is murder. How can you seek forgiveness for the sin of committing murder if you are already dead? It is a paradox for sure, and no one will have a definitive answer until the day of judgment.
So who is being judgmental here? Certainly not me. Like I said in my original post on this subject that this paradox is in Gods hands no matter what you,me, or anyone else thinks or believes the ultimate decision maker is God. I personally just do not want to be in a position to test what I believe God has said on this subject. If you choose to that is your prerogative and please feel free to test the almighty Lord. But, In my opinion testing God is a subject for another discussion.

N0help4u · Aug 14, 2009, 08:46 AM

I agree with ClassyT that he was saved and fell into sin because you don't hand over an unsaved person to satan to be delivered because they are already there and needing pulled out of the grip of satan. There is a difference between saying let them hit bottom so they can be saved and handing them over to satan.