[jenniepepsi]

Mmm excon, I know I am completely open accepting and perfectly fine with being at an event and them praying to another god than mine. I simply pray to my god while they are praying to thiers :)

[N0help4u]

mmm excon, i know i am completely open accepting and perfectly fine with being at an event and them praying to another god than mine. i simply pray to my god while they are praying to thiers :)

Exactly

[jmjoseph]

Hello again, clete:

It's not about being better than you. It's about having a different religion, attending a public event, and being excluded. I dunno what's so hard to understand about that. Unless, you too lose your mind when it comes to religious things.

Plus, you'll have to forgive me... but I don't believe that YOU particular Christians wouldn't be offended if you attended a public event and they invoked some other god than your own. Nahhh, you religious folks ain't that liberal...

You're not really gonna tell me that crap, are you??? Come on, it's a sin to lie. IF you went to your city counsel meeting and they prayed to the pagen god of the wilderness, WE'D never hear the end of it. Who're you trying to kid?

excon

Not kidding me either. Some people don't think that there EVEN is anything different than their own belief. And that those who do, pray for their "mis-guided" ways.

[s_cianci]

he wants you to change the way you live

Yeah, but so does Santa Claus, right? You know, makin' a list, checkin' it twice, going to find out who's naughty and nice... lol.

[mugger]

Yeah, but so does Santa Claus, right? You know, makin' a list, checkin' it twice, gonna find out who's naughty and nice... lol.

Lmao, that is beautiful! I, personally, was subjected to the idea through my church when I was younger that santa claus worked with the church (hence- saint nick). Santa claus even came to my church- should that be considered blasphemy? Then you find out he's not real and then, naturally, you have to question the church and people in your life who told you this lie and wonder what else are they lying to me about.

[NeedKarma]

mmm excon, i know i am completely open accepting and perfectly fine with being at an event and them praying to another god than mine. i simply pray to my god while they are praying to thiers :)

I'm waiting for a touching prayer to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

may his noodly appendage touch you

RAmen.

[N0help4u]

Dear spaghetti monster
You know I love you
Especially the garden marinara but on the thick side. All covered with meatballs I really do adore. Let the garlic bread be extra tasty and most of all grant me seconds.

[NeedKarma]

Well done. :D 15 internet points for you :)

[ETWolverine]

Hi guys,

I'd like to weigh in on this.

I understand where excon is coming from. I'm an Orthodox Jew, for those of you who didn't already know, so I have some similar thoughts as excon on this issue.

The question that has been asked here is why excon would be offended if a prayer was ended with "in Jesus' Name, Amen". And excon has tried, rather well, to explain why he feels the way he feels. I think he's done a good job of explaining the feeling of being left out.

But from my perspective, there's more to it than that.

To us, the very name of "Jesus" brings up thoughts of persecutions. After the death of Jesus, the Jews were persecuted terribly by Rome. In fact, this week (Thursday to be exact) is the anniversary of the destruction of the Great Temple by Rome, and the massacres that came along with it. Those persecutions under Rome lasted for centuries.

Then, beginning with the 2nd and 3rd Century CE, as the Christian Church grew in prominence, the name "Jesus" became symbolic of prosecutions by the Church and its members. Everything from the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Blood Libels, and various small and large pogroms came from the Christians yelling "Jesus killers" at us. In fact, the lie that we had killed Jesus was considered part of Church doctrine until only very recently.

Then there are the incidents throughout history of our children being taken from us by Christians and being converted to Christianity. Even today, groups like Jews for Jesus (which is really an arm of the Southern Baptist Church) still try to convert uneducated/unaffiliated Jews to Christianity by trying to convince them that beliefe in Jesus is somehow a part of the Jewish religion, when it is not. We Jews consider this to be an attack on Jewish souls... and such attacks have been very successful. We consider that an anthema to our religion. You may consider it "bringing that person closer to Jesus and G-d", but we consider it a deliberate attack on the souls of Jews.

In short, our history with Jesus and the invocation of Jesus' name is not a good one.

Is it any wonder that prayers to Jesus on in Jesus' name would make a Jew feel uncomfortable?

Should we feel that way? Perhaps not. But you can't discount that much history as an emotional motivator.

I'm not going to ask you guys to agree with our point of view on this. The point of view comes with a national history that most of you don't share with us. But I will ask you how you would feel if that WERE your point of view.

If you were a Jew, with all that history in your background, how would you feel about a Christian prayer? Would it make you uncomfortable? Would it make you feel left out?

Think about it.

Elliot

[N0help4u]

I agree and can understand that ETW.
I am Christian and I do not like religion, but I differentiate Jesus from the religions that invocation of Jesus' name because it is not a good one when it is in the name of Jesus and they are no better than the KKK.
They twist the name of Jesus to their own image and liking.
Personally I am FOR the Jew and NOT for the Rome that would do such things. To me they are blasphming your G-d as well as mine

[JudyKayTee]

My husband was also an Orthodox Jew - he took no offense at prayers in the name of Jesus. In fact, he had friends in a lot of other religions and neither one of us had a problem with praying with them, just not repeating what was not our belief.

He felt that if he was at an event that is primarily Christian (particularly born again) ending a prayer in the name of Jesus was what he was going to hear and that no one meant any direct offense to him. I regularly attended events at Temple with him and I simply did not repeat what I do not believe.

I believe it's a case of the majority - I have no idea what is done is Israel where (presumably) Jews are the majority. Does anyone know? Do non-Jews take offense?

I understand what is being said here but I think everyone (Jews/Christians/everyone else) has to be sensitive and considerate. If it's meant as a slur, fine, take offense; if not, the World is full of offenses, both innocent and intended.

[ETWolverine]

My husband was also an Orthodox Jew - he took no offense at prayers in the name of Jesus. In fact, he had friends in a lot of other religions and neither one of us had a problem with praying with them, just not repeating what was not our belief.

He felt that if he was at an event that is primarily Christian (particularly born again) ending a prayer in the name of Jesus was what he was going to hear and that no one meant any direct offense to him. I regularly attended events at Temple with him and I simply did not repeat what I do not believe.

I believe it's a case of the majority - I have no idea what is done is Israel where (presumably) Jews are the majority. Does anyone know? Do non-Jews take offense?

I understand what is being said here but I think everyone (Jews/Christians/everyone else) has to be sensitive and considerate. If it's meant as a slur, fine, take offense; if not, the World is full of offenses, both innocent and intended.

I want to be very careful about this so that I can make myself clear.

I am NOT trying to advocate that anyone should change how they pray in my presence. That was not the purpose of my post. I have absolutely no problem with people praying in their own way, and Judy is right... majority rules.

My only purpose in this post was to try and explain WHY a Jew might feel uncomfortable about it. Not every Jew feels the same about it, nor am I saying that they should. My purpose was to put the feelings that excon was trying to articulate into an historical context that makes it easier to understand.

I am most certainly not trying to advocate that you SHOULD feel the same way, whether you are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist or Agnostic. I was simply trying to explain why some might feel that way.

Elliot

[Wondergirl]

I believe it's a case of the majority

My Lutheran minister dad used to tell us kids that, if we were in a group that prayed to a god who was not our God, just be respectful but don't participate. Unfortunately, that included not praying with the other Brownie Scouts in my troop and other Protestant denominations... but I WAS respectful.

[ETWolverine]

I believe it's a case of the majority - I have no idea what is done is Israel where (presumably) Jews are the majority. Does anyone know? Do non-Jews take offense?

Let's put it this way:

For the period of 1947 - 1967, Arabs did not allow Jews to ascend the Temple Mount to pray at the Wailing Wall.

After 1967, once Israel was in control of the Wailing Wall, the Wall was opened up to public prayer by all religions. In 2000, the Al Aksa Intafada was started because Palestinians didn't like the fact that Ariel Sharon approached the Temple Mount and tried to stone the Jews praying there.

Between 1967 and 1995, Jews and Christians were permitted to pray at the Cave of the Patriarchs (Cave of Machpelah). In the 1995 Wye Accords, the area, which was part of the West Bank town of Hebron, was transferred to Palestinian control. Jews and Christians are no longer allowed to pray there, and the few attempts by jews to do so anyway have been met with violence.

The same story is repeated at the Tomb of Joseph and the Tomb of Rachel and the Tomb of Samuel the Prophet. Attempts by Jews to pray in these locations have been met with violence.

On the other hand, Jews have continued to maintain an open site for prayer by all religions at the Wailing Wall and at other religious sites under their control.

So, in answer to your question: What happens in Israel? If the Jews are in control of the area, peaceful prayer (even by Palestinian Muslims) is encouraged. If the area is under Arab Muslim control, the prayer by anyone other than a Muslim is met with violence.

The Middle East is not exactly the best place to look for examples of religious egalitarianism and co-existence.

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

My Lutheran minister dad used to tell us kids that, if we were in a group that prayed to a god who was not our God, just be respectful but don't participate. Unfortunately, that included not praying with the other Brownie Scouts in my troop and other Protestant denominations...............but I WAS respectful.

Well said.

[JudyKayTee]

And my husband learned Christmas carols in elementary school, participated in Christmas pageants, did the Pledge of Allegance but when it came "under God" he did not actually say "God" because (he told me) that was not allowed. His parents explained that not everyone is the same, not everyone observes the same holidays. He was okay with it - and his kids (to a lesser extent because the schools now seem more aware) had the same experience.

He - and his parents - felt that he could participate (and his children could participate) without believing the carols and/or the pageants, sort of like a play about the Easter Bunny. It's make believe - and that's what he thought about the carols and pageants.

I don't know how you get away from things like this when the majority (sort of) rules.

And, no, "ET," I didn't take offense and didn't mean to indicate that I did. I just thought there were things that needed to be said.

[paraclete]

Hello again, clete:

It's not about being better than you. It's about having a different religion, attending a public event, and being excluded. I dunno what's so hard to understand about that. Unless, you too lose your mind when it comes to religious things.

Plus, you'll have to forgive me... but I don't believe that YOU particular Christians wouldn't be offended if you attended a public event and they invoked some other god than your own. Nahhh, you religious folks ain't that liberal...

You're not really gonna tell me that crap, are you??? Come on, it's a sin to lie. IF you went to your city counsel meeting and they prayed to the pagen god of the wilderness, WE'D never hear the end of it. Who're you trying to kid?

excon

Ex I think your point of view comes from living in a closed society, you see I live in a place where things that I don't agree with are acknowledged all the time. Every time someone opens their mouth around here they prefix it by acknowledging the local aboriginal people without realising that what they are doing is acknowledging their spiritual beliefs and we have some dude dance around in a loin cloth smoking us like we need fumigating before we can set foot or speak in our own country and yet the same people would baulk if I used the name of Jesus. So praying to the pagan god of the wilderness, yes, we get that a lot round here and no one says a word.

You just don't know what liberal is, Your liberals are conservatives when you compare them with our socialists, our liberals are considered right wing and those good ole down home red neck boys, why they don't even get a look in

[JudyKayTee]

The Middle East is not exactly the best place to look for examples of religious egalitarianism and co-existence.

Elliot

My apologies - other than having been married to an Orthodox Jew and learning whatever he shared with me, I have (obviously) little or no knowledge about the subject.

Another reason to stay off the religious boards.

I apologize for my incorrect example - and I meant no harm or offensive. It is apparently easy to find offense when none is intended if that is your aim.

[ETWolverine]

My apologies - other than having been married to an Orthodox Jew and learning whatever he shared with me, I have (obviously) little or no knowledge about the subject.

Another reason to stay off the religious boards.

I apologize for my incorrect example - and I meant no harm or offensive. It is apparently easy to find offense when none is intended if that is your aim.

No offense taken. I was just trying to answer your question in historical context.

[galveston]

Hello again, clete:

It's not about being better than you. It's about having a different religion, attending a public event, and being excluded. I dunno what's so hard to understand about that. Unless, you too lose your mind when it comes to religious things.


excon

Forgive me, Ex, I singled out your first paragraph because it is just so revealing!

We finally got you to admit that Atheism is a religion! Most Atheists are not so honest about that!

You are to be commended.:)