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Milo Dolezal · Jul 24, 2009, 08:29 PM

That conical part ( the middle of the stem) is your temperature control. It turns independently within the stem itself. You don't remove it. Leave it as it is.

Is that screw on side of that conical part or in the middle / inside of it ?

Can you snap clearer and closer photo ? Also from 45 degree view ? Put your camera on Macro

Ok, there may be different solution to your problem. These valves had notorious problem with the handle not holding tight on that conical part. As you keep adjusting hot/cold water, it slowly slipped towards cold water side cutting your hot water in the process. After some time, you will end up with no hot water. You will have to remove the handle, readjust the conical stem - and you have hot water again. Please, do this test for me:

1. Turn water on with the lever handle. Do not install the Temperature Control Knob/handle. Let water flow through shower head
2. Take small channel locks and turn that conical part all the towards hot water, as far as it goes. Let it run for few minutes. See if you get hot water.

Let me know if it worked...

bagchip · Jul 24, 2009, 08:59 PM

That conical part ( the middle of the stem) is your temperature control. You don't remove it. Leave it as it is.

It is still there. I tried to turn it count clock. After 1 1/2 turn it became stuck and is there. OK I will not remove it!

Is that screw on side of that conical part or in the middle / inside of it ?

There are two tiny screw holes on opposite sides of the cone. One of the hole had a tiny screw, which I removed to take a look and the other screw tap did not have any screw at all!

Can you snap clearer and closer photo ? Also from 45 degree view ? Put your camera on Macro

If my description is not sufficient, let me know, I shall try to take some pictures tomorrow. I am afraid, I have never been able to take any good picture at MACRO setting.

Ok, there may be different solution to your problem. These valves had notorious problem with the handle not holding tight on that conical part. As you keep adjusting hot/cold water, it slowly slipped towards cold water side cutting your hot water in the process.

This happened slowly! So, I think that you are right!

After some time, you will end up with no hot water. You will have to remove the handle, readjust the conical stem - and you have hot water again. Please, do this test for me:

1. Turn water on with the lever handle. Do not install the Temperature Control Knob/handle. Let water flow through shower head
2. Take small channel locks and turn that conical part all the towards hot water, as far as it goes. Let it run for few minutes. See if you get hot water.

Let me know if it worked...

I shall try this experiment tomorrow. I cannot promise any result as last time I checked the cone is locked tight!
What do you mean by "channel locks" ?

bagchip · Jul 24, 2009, 10:52 PM

Can you snap clearer and closer photo ? also from 45 degree view ? Put your camera on Macro

Picture From Top See the screw.

Picture From Bottom Observe no screw in the screw tap!

I shall try to do the experiment you suggested tomorrow once you clarify what "channel locks" means!

However, you might be interested in the observation I made earlier when before I started dismantling the valve. The lever that controls water pressure, @ 12 o'clock produced no water flow. At 6 o'clock had maximum flow. However moving the temperature control ring provided no hot water at any position of the temperature ring. This supports your thought that the hot water supply is completely shut off. I thought that this was due to calcium deposit.

Milo Dolezal · Jul 25, 2009, 09:41 AM

Thank you for new pics...

Just in case: I hope you are doing all this work with water supply Turned Off... If not, than Turn water off.

Remove the front ring. See the blue arrow. Don't do anything with those small screws. The have nothing to do with removing the stem. We will get to them later... You have to remove that trim piece. Once out, remove the ring behind it, with elongated mark at 12 o'clock. Remove handle. Now, remove cartridge.

I think it is screwed in. Give it a close look on the inside. Do you see threads? If yes, then try to unscrew it. If you see lots of notches all around the perimeter then it could be only slipped in. I see some calcification bet. The stem and trim so it won't be easy to remove it. Be patient. You can use small flat screwdriver and hammer and gently help it a bit.

Milo Dolezal · Jul 25, 2009, 09:55 AM

The volume control handle should swing from 3 o'clock - through 6 o'clock - to 9 o'clock.

bagchip · Jul 25, 2009, 11:30 AM

Just in case: I hope you are doing all this work with water supply Turned Off... If not, than Turn water off.
I turn it off when I work on the valve.

Remove the front ring. See the blue arrow.
We are finally on the same page! That's what I have been trying to do for the last several days! The thing wont budge. It seems to be stuck, probably calcium crud.

Don't do anything with those small screws.
Remember, we have just 1 screw, the one on the top. There was no screw on the bottom hole! May I enquire as to what is the function of these screws?

I think it is screwed in. Give it a close look on the inside. Do you see threads? If yes, then try to unscrew it. If you see lots of notches all around the perimeter then it could be only slipped in. I see some calcification bet. the stem and trim so it won't be easy to remove it. Be patient. You can use small flat screwdriver and hammer and gently help it a bit.
Are you talking about the front ring? Shall give it a try!

The volume control handle should swing from 3 o'clock - through 6 o'clock - to 9 o'clock.
Right now, it goes from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock only!?!

bagchip · Jul 25, 2009, 11:34 AM

PS:

The bottom picture does show that the font ring is indeed mounted on slots!

Milo Dolezal · Jul 25, 2009, 12:00 PM

The small screws in the conical stem are there to hold the adjustment of that stem ( hot water temperature ) in place. They have two screws but one should be adequate... Here is where I hope the conical stem wasn't pushed out of alignment cutting off hot water. If this is true than all the work you are doing is for nothing...

In the first photo I see threads. When I look at the second photo, I see notches, no threads. I am unable to tell from the 2nd photo whether these notches hold the #2 ring in place or the ring behind it. You have to visually inspect it and find out how is each ring held in place. Then, proceed with removal of the ring...

Do you plan on installing brand new stem... or do you just want to clean it and reinstall the old one ?

bagchip · Jul 25, 2009, 03:36 PM

Success at last! The front ring is off! It really came off quite easy! May be it had softened down form the work over last night! Ant way, congrats Milo!
Here is the new problem
http://bagchi.info/temp/CIMG1509.JPG
I have unscrewed the cartridge cover with the nut. It's loose but it won't come off easily. Do I just pull it out? How much force would be needed? The volume ring seems pretty tight.

In the first photo I see threads. When I look at the second photo, I see notches, no threads. I am unable to tell from the 2nd photo whether these notches hold the #2 ring in place or the ring behind it. You have to visually inspect it and find out how is each ring held in place. Then, proceed with removal of the ring...

I shall study it carefully next.

Do you plan on installing brand new stem....or do you just wanna clean it and reinstall the old one ?

Since I am learning how to do it, second time would be easy. So, we can try with the old stem, but if it does not work too well we can redo with a brand new one. What would be the cost and where can I buy? Well, It was used it for 18 years. It has done well. Let's try with the old one and see.

Milo, you have done well!!!!

bagchip · Jul 25, 2009, 03:49 PM

PS: I messed up the image, how do I correct it? Thanks!

Milo Dolezal · Jul 25, 2009, 03:50 PM

Congratulations!. but we are not done, until the cartridge is out. Now unscrew the cartridge, take large channel locks, grab it by the conical stem - and pull it out - straight towards you. It will have some resistance, since it sits on few stiff O-rings. Once you take it out - you are done. Please, keep me updated...

For My Info: was that #2 ring Screwed in or did it sit over the notched part of the stem ? Thank you

Milo Dolezal · Jul 25, 2009, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by bagchip

PS: I messed up the image, how do I correct it? Thanks!

Image is too big. You have to reduce it first before you post it. When you reduce it, the longer side should be about 400. Or, photograph it on VGA or 1 or 2 MP. This way, you can post it directly.

Milo Dolezal · Jul 25, 2009, 04:04 PM

Now I see the latest image: As I said, unscrew it, grab it real well - and pull straight out towards you as hard as you can - but in continuous motion. You are almost done...

bagchip · Jul 25, 2009, 04:26 PM

Got the rest of it out! Pic1, Pic2.

The brass nut thing is loose but it won't come out. The two screws on the wall, I suppose controls the cold and hot water volumes. They are rusty and could not move them with a screw driver. Have to try it again

Milo Dolezal · Jul 25, 2009, 05:02 PM

The white arrows point to hot/cold Service Stops. They also may be clogged up with debris. Also, make sure they are fully open. Red arrow points to missing grout in your tile. Fill that space so you don't have leaks.

bagchip · Jul 25, 2009, 06:19 PM

Now unscrew the cartridge, take large channel locks, grab it by the conical stem - and pull it out - straight towards you. It will have some resistance, since it sits on few stiff O-rings. Once you take it out - you are done.

I am worried that this might squish the soft brass pat. I shall give it a mild treatment and see what happens!

Image is too big. You have to reduce it first before you post it. When you reduce it, the longer side should be about 400. Or, photograph it on VGA or 1 or 2 MP. This way, you can post it directly.

Got you! Thanks!

The white arrows point to hot/cold Service Stops. They also may be clogged up with debris. Also, make sure they are fully open. Red arrow points to missing grout in your tile.

I have been able to loosen the service stops. I get the feel that there is no control in them. Are they there to hold the plastic chamber?

As far as the red mark in the tile, it is not missing grout but a scrape in the tile glaze. The tile clay is red.

I was able to take out the cartridge. There seems to be a lot of calcium crud. I am soaking it in mild vinegar. This will not hurt the cartridge, I suppose? Is there some kind of grease that I can use to put Humpty Dumpty back?

I really do not understand in detail how this gizmo works. How do I know that it would work if I just physically screw it back?

For My Info: was that #2 ring Screwed in or did it sit over the notched part of the stem?

It just slides over, there are no notches on the inside surface.
Well back to work again.

bagchip · Jul 25, 2009, 06:27 PM

Here is the cartridge.

Milo Dolezal · Jul 25, 2009, 07:01 PM

You did very well ! I am glad you've managed to do it on your own. Congratulations !

The stop can be either screw-like ( will close by turning it several times clockwise) or only half turn stops ( slot in horizontal position indicates water is open, in vertical position water is closed). Yes, they turn very easily...

That cartridge has five O-rings. You should get non-petroleum based plumber's grease, lubricate the O-riings and all threads, and slip it back. Do not worry, it will work. But, you will have to do the temperature adjustment as per instructions. Here you will have to deal with that small screw on the conical end of the stem you acquired about few posts back...

bagchip · Jul 26, 2009, 08:35 AM

Some Disturbing Observations

While the parts remained submerged in 10% [diluted] white vinegar solution overnight, I made the following observations.

With H & C waters turned off and the H & C water stops turned off there was a small flow of water through the plastic socket for the cartridge!
Then I opened both the H & C water supply. As expected, the small flow water from the plastic socket remained the same.
Then I opened the H and then the C water stops. The water flow still remained the same! Shouldn't it increase?

Milo Dolezal · Jul 27, 2009, 08:49 AM

It is very possible that the stops are not functioning properly. It should not be a problem as long as they are not clogged. It they are clogged than you will have to disassemble them and clean them.