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Wondergirl · Jul 14, 2009, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Well in that case God doesn't need us to come to him, because we're all his children and no matter what we do he would never deny us the gift of heaven.

We don't come to Him; He comes to us, after finding us like a shepherd finds the lost sheep and gently carries it back to the herd.

Wondergirl · Jul 14, 2009, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Unfortunately the minority go to heaven.

Yes, "unfortunately" is right. Some unfortunately think that. And I'll bet you count yourself in that "minority."

NeedKarma · Jul 14, 2009, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

So, if your son was an adult, and you wanted him to move in with you, ylou'd force him to do so whether he wanted to or not?

That scenario doesn't make sense and does not speak to the message Altenweg is sending. The proper scenario is if the adult son wanted to move home would she reject him, the answer being no obviously. Why would want to force him to live at home?? What analogy are you trying to make with that?

galveston · Jul 14, 2009, 11:24 AM

John 8:43-45
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
(KJV)

Jesus was talking to men, human beings, and he most certainly did NOT consider them to be Heaven bound.

They made the wrong choice and went to Hell. Please make sure you do not do the same thing.

I'm simply pointing out that just because we are humans does not automatically mean we are children of God. See verse below.

John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(KJV)

We are not born sons of God, we become sons of God through grace by faith.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(KJV)

(Off thread, I know, but the OP has gotten several outstanding answers so far.)

Wondergirl · Jul 14, 2009, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

That scenario doesn't make sense and does not speak to the message Altenweg is sending. The proper scenario is if the adult son wanted to move home would she reject him, the answer being no obviously.

There's the story of the prodigal son...

Tj3 · Jul 14, 2009, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Yes, "unfortunately" is right. Some unfortunately think that. And I'll bet you count yourself in that "minority."

Right the minority think that, and that is because God said it is true:

Luke 13:23-28
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them, 24 Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,' 26 then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' 27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
NKJV

Tj3 · Jul 14, 2009, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

That scenario doesn't make sense and does not speak to the message Altenweg is sending. The proper scenario is if the adult son wanted to move home would she reject him, the answer being no obviously. Why would want to force him to live at home??? What analogy are you trying to make with that?

No, it is exactly the right analogy because all men have rejected God by sinning (Rom 3:23), and God calls them to return, desires that they return and God paid the price for their sins so that the way is open for their return. Whether they do is up to them. God does not force us to come, and thus most will not come. For all to be saved would require that God force us against our will to be saved.

So, for everyone to be saved, the analogy would be that she would force her son to live with her using whatever means at her disposal if the son did not wish to.

Wondergirl · Jul 14, 2009, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

God desires that they pay the price for their sins

Huh?

Forget the Prodigal Son story then, I guess.

Tj3 · Jul 14, 2009, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Huh?

Forget the Prodigal Son story then, I guess.

Perhaps you should read the prodigal son story again. Show me where the father sent the police out to drag the son home and force him to stay home.

I missed that.

Seems to me that he decided to return.

Wondergirl · Jul 14, 2009, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Perhaps you should read the prodigal son story again. Show me where the father sent the police out to drag the son home and force him to stay home.

I missed that.

Seems to me that he decided to return.

No, I wasn't referring to that. My point was your comment --

Originally Posted by Tj3

God desires that they pay the price for their sins

Tj3 · Jul 14, 2009, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

We don't come to Him; He comes to us, after finding us like a shepherd finds the lost sheep and gently carries it back to the herd.

Then you don't agree with this passage?

Acts 15:17
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.'
NKJV

DrJ · Jul 14, 2009, 01:09 PM

I can't imagine this thread will live to see another day...

Tj3 · Jul 14, 2009, 01:29 PM

I stand by what my posts says

No, it is exactly the right analogy because all men have rejected God by sinning (Rom 3:23), and God calls them to return, desires that they return and God paid the price for their sins so that the way is open for their return. Whether they do is up to them. God does not force us to come, and thus most will not come. For all to be saved would require that God force us against our will to be saved.

So, for everyone to be saved, the analogy would be that she would force her son to live with her using whatever means at her disposal if the son did not wish to.

Wondergirl · Jul 14, 2009, 01:31 PM

Apparently, there are at least two ways of thinking about infant baptism -- 1) God has commanded that even babies are to be baptised because He will send His Spirit to work faith in a baby's heart, and 2) people should not be baptised until they intellectually understand what baptism is.

The difference seems to limit God, that He cannot work faith in a baby's heart but must wait until it is cognitively ready.

N0help4u · Jul 14, 2009, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Apparently, there are at least two ways of thinking about infant baptism -- 1) God has commanded that even babies are to be baptised because He will send His Spirit to work faith in a baby's heart,

Where do you get that God commanded that babies are to be baptised? Baby baptism is more of an aknowledgment of THEIR statement that THEY will raise the baby to follow God to the best of their ability. More like people that dedicate their baby instead of baptising.
The baby still has to get baptised for their own sign of their outward aknowledgment of God once they get to be old enough to accept God. So basically a baby being baptized is not a commandment. It is more of a ritual.
How does a baby have faith worked in its heart?

As they grow older through the years they either except or reject God so the faith is there or it isn't. Yeah God can work faith into their heart but it isn't based on whether the parents baptised the baby. Baby baptism is more for affirmation to the parents of their intent to raise the child godly.

Tj3 · Jul 14, 2009, 01:51 PM

I have never said, nor do I believe that anyone but Jesus pays the price for sins.

Wondergirl · Jul 14, 2009, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

where do you get that God commanded that babies are to be baptised?

"Go ye therefore...baptize all nations." (Babies are part of "all nations.")

How does a baby have faith worked in its heart?

The Holy Spirit comes along and begins the process of working faith.

Hmmm, I've never been rebaptized as an adult. Am I going to hell?

Most mainstream Christian churches do infant baptisms and accept each other's baptisms, so the person doesn't have to be rebapized if a different church is joined.

N0help4u · Jul 14, 2009, 01:58 PM

Why haven't you been baptised as an adult?
The Bible says repent and be baptised. Meaning that order.
A baby can not repent so as an adult they should affirm their baby baptism.

I don't think not getting baptised sends you to hell so no I don't think that would be what would send you to hell if you were to end up there. The thief on the cross was never baptised.

Wondergirl · Jul 14, 2009, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

why haven't you been baptised as an adult?
The Bible says repent and be baptised. Meaning that order.
A baby can not repent so as an adult they should affirm their baby baptism.

My baptism as an infant is sufficient.

Tj3 · Jul 14, 2009, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

why haven't you been baptised as an adult?
The Bible says repent and be baptised. Meaning that order.
A baby can not repent so as an adult they should affirm their baby baptism.

Good point.

I don't think not getting baptised sends you to hell so no I don't think that would be what would send you to hell if you were to end up there. The thief on the cross was never baptised.

Agreed. There is nothing in scripture which requires that you to be saved. We are commended to be baptized as adults, so it is an act of obedience, but there is nothing telling us that babies are to be baptized. There is nothing wrong with doing so, but it will not affect the baby's salvation, nor does it count as believer's baptism.