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Athos · Jul 12, 2009, 09:31 PM

Recently stated here was the proposition that no one can be saved unless they believe in Jesus.

What happens to a week-old baby who dies?

Did Jesus make an exception for these? Does the baby go to hell?

N0help4u · Jul 12, 2009, 09:52 PM

Children are under the age of countability.
They can not make decisions for themselves so they go to heaven from everything we know. Jesus said to allow the children to come to him because they are innocent and their hearts have not been corrupted yet.
Children can not be held accountable because they haven't learned right from wrong to make a decision as an adult can.

Athos · Jul 12, 2009, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Children are under the age of countability.
They can not make decisions for themselves so they go to heaven from everything we know. Jesus said to allow the children to come to him because they are innocent and their hearts have not been corrupted yet.
Children can not be held accountable because they haven't learned right from wrong to make a decision as an adult can.

Then, the Bible statement is not literal?

N0help4u · Jul 12, 2009, 10:05 PM

What Bible statement is not literal?

If you are talking about salvation by no other way but through Jesus that is referring to adults.

Athos · Jul 12, 2009, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

what Bible statement is not literal?

If you are talking about salvation by no other way but through Jesus that is referring to adults.

Where does it say that the statement is only for adults? Are children the age of 9 excluded? They're certainly not adults.

arcura · Jul 12, 2009, 10:56 PM

Athos,'
My personal belief is that very young children are treated very mercifully by God.
But I also believe that it is very wise to baptize infants just in case.
Baptism is a saving grace is my belief.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Athos · Jul 12, 2009, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Athos,'
My personal belief is that very young children are treated very mercifully by God.
But I also believe that it is very wise to baptize infants just in case.
Baptism is a saving grace is my belief.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Then, in the case of children, accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is not necessary?

adam7gur · Jul 12, 2009, 11:28 PM

Children are like gold.No matter what you do to them,baptize them in water or even in ''fire'',they will always be gold.
So in my opinion,why should I worry about children when I can do nothing more to make gold better than it is!

Athos · Jul 12, 2009, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

Children are like gold.No matter what you do to them,baptize them in water or even in ''fire'',they will always be gold.
So in my opinion,why should I worry about children when I can do nothing more to make gold better than it is!

You are agreeing, then, that the Bible statement on this issue is not to be taken literally?

arcura · Jul 12, 2009, 11:43 PM

Athos,
I believe Jesus said that those who are not for Him are against Him.
Since very young children have are not able to make such a choice I believe that the infinite and perfect love and mercy of God come into play in that regard.
Jesus Is the way so it is He who will decide what to do with very young children who pass this like early on.
No matter what you or I believe about that, I think that Jesus will decide His way at that time.
But because of my belief in God's love and mercy for all I believe He will deal with the very young woth love and mery.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Athos · Jul 13, 2009, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

Athos,
I believe Jesus said that those who are not for Him are against Him.
Since very young children have are not able to make such a choice I believe that the infinite and perfect love and mercy of God come into play in that regard.
Jesus Is the way so it is He who will decide what to do with very young children who pass this like early on.
No matter what you or I believe about that, I think that Jesus will decide His way at that time.
But because of my belief in God's love and mercy for all I believe He will deal with the very young woth love and mery.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Ok, then the statement of Jesus is not a literal statement? (Hard to get folks to answer the question).

adam7gur · Jul 13, 2009, 12:59 AM

If the Biblical statement that you are referring to is the belief in Jesus and how that saves us, then I say that the litteral thing about it is ''Love God and love your neighbour''.
I may say that I love God but with my actions I show no love to my neighbour.This means that I do not love God also.If I don't literally say that I love God but with my actions I do love my neighbour then I do love God!
God is fair. He judges all of us(Christians or not) according to what we know and not what we do not know.
No one can blame me for not being able to fly an aeroplane 'cause I do not know how to.
So what do children know?
They know nothing and that's why they are free of everything!
When a child comes to an age of knowing,then this is no longer a child.
Adam and Eve were innocent until they ate the fruit of knowing good and evil.After knowing they were no longer innocent.
If you mean that not only literall Christians will enjoy God's eternal happiness,I say that I believe that also!

homesell · Jul 13, 2009, 05:41 AM

All life comes from God alone. Nothing living and no matter at all would exist except for God starting it all.
The fact that a one week old baby dies at all is proof of original sin inherited from Adam(Romans 5:1-19)
Adams sin, which we all inherit, results in death. So we all need salvation from the judgement of that sin. And the little baby gains salvation the same way all of us that are saved do – the grace of God. Grace is not earned or deserved but bestowed upon us.
A one week old baby has no basis on which to believe or not believe and in John 3:36 the primary damning work is unbelief…”he that believes not the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of God is still upon him. In a baby's life, there is no unbelief or willful rebellion or willful acts of disobedience. Scripture always connects condemnation with works of unrighteosness-willful sin. And nowhere in the bible is anyone said to be in danger of hell merely for the guilt of the inherited Adam. Whenever scripture describes persons in hell the stress is on their willful acts of sin.
Romans 1:18 says, “for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. A baby does not have the ability to 'hold the truth in unrighteousness and thus be subject to the wrath of God.
When David's baby born by Bathsheba died he was coincidentally one week old, yet David said, (referring to the baby) “I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”
When the Israelites came to the promised land, all except Joshua, Caleb and Moses said, “If we fight against the current occupants of the land, they will kill us.” God told Moses that from that point on everyone 20 years of age and over would wander in the desert and never see the promised land. At the end of 40 years all those that had rebelled had finally died. Since those 19 years and younger at the time were allowed to enter the promised land, this is a suggestion, not a proof, that there is an age of accountability and that the age is around 20.
Of course the question about babies and those that never heard (or even Aliens!) is often used to divert attention off the person that isn't a baby and has heard that they themselves need salvation. They are trying to find a loophole in the Law so to speak because if one says that babies that don't know Jesus are saved then it isn't true one must know Jesus to be saved. And the truth is if you're old enough to ask the question and understand it you DO need Jesus to be saved. The real question is, since you aren't a baby and you have heard, will you trust God and accept the freely offered gift of salvation, inviting the Triunity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to indwell you and cause you to let the old you die as you become a new creature through spiritual birth? Or will you continue to strive after the illusion of being in charge of your life, the “captain” of your soul?
From the beginning, people have been given life and saved by the grace of God. BEFORE the cross, Old Testament people looked forward to a coming redeemer that would save them from their sins and practiced the rituals which were a shadow of what was to come (the substance, that is, Christ)
After the cross, we look back at what was done for us.
In either case we are all still saved by the Grace of God. In Gen 18:25 the rhetorical question is asked by Abraham, “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

classyT · Jul 13, 2009, 07:56 AM

A baby or a small child is UNABLE to understand the Gospel. How can a child recognize he is a sinner by nature and God has sent HIS son to save him? Of course babies, small children and anyone unable to comprehend the gospel is going to be in heaven.

as a christian, I believe we should give some biblical references to our beliefs. I can think of ONE off hand and I know there are more... It is in the book of Samuel and I will give a little background so the scripture makes sense:

(David the king of Israel had a child out of wedlock with Bathsheba and because of his sin of hiding it, murdering Bathsheba's husband... God dealt with David. He told David his new baby would die. Now David prayed and prayed that the Lord wouldn't take his son, he fasted for several days but alas.. the baby died. Here is what David had to say)

David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked. "Yes," they replied, "he is dead." {20} Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate. {21} His servants asked him, "Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!" {22} He answered, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' {23} But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.

David is in heaven and so is his child.

But here is MY issue with all of this....A LOT of people who do not want to accept that Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father will be more concerned about babies or people who have never heard the Gospel. But GOD is saying to YOU PERSONALLY....What will YOU do with Christ? Ultimately everyone will stand before the Lord and give an account of THEIR understanding and what THEY did with him. I am pretty sure NO ONE will stand before him pointing the finger saying...."well what about these people or babies."

Jesus once answered Peter who was all concerned about another disciples life and what would become of that person. Jesus said this in John 21:22:

what is that to thee? Follow thou me. ( in other words Jesus was saying... worry about YOU... Jesus is Just and righteous... He will DO what is RIGHT for He is far more compassionate, merciful, understanding than sinful man.)

I'm not suggesting we should not be concerned about others or wonder about these matters. But when it affects OUR decision to believe God and HIS PLAN of salvation... it is foolish.

classyT · Jul 13, 2009, 08:04 AM

Homesell,

I do think the Lord has given us examples in his word so I think the Bible is clear on the subject... there are more passages than the one I have given above. I will have to dive in and look... babies are in heaven...

Also, Loved the verse you quoted... Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

If you know our savior at all... you know that is true!

N0help4u · Jul 13, 2009, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Athos

Then, in the case of children, accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is not necessary?

Yes they can choose to accept Jesus or they can wait to but it is still important that they are brought up knowing about accepting Jesus so they have a good foundation for when they are older so that hopefully they do not stray.

jenniepepsi · Jul 13, 2009, 02:30 PM

OK.

In order to be saved, and permitted into heaven, you need to be FORGIVEN OF SINS. Only JESUS can do this.

NO, this does not apply to children, because children DO NOT SIN. Jesus said:

Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like an innocent child shall not enter it." (Luke 18:15-17)

I take this to mean, that children already have a place in heaven, and that place in heaven is NOT endangered until they reach the age to where they can honestly CHOOSE between RIGHT and WRONG, and KNOW THE DIFFERENCE>

jenniepepsi · Jul 13, 2009, 03:07 PM

On a side note, I know there are some christians who believe that man is BORN in sin.

I for one, do not believe that I serve a God so heartless that he would condemn an innocent child simply because his parents didn't have him baptised.

And, may god forgive me, if I find out, in my death, that he DOES condemn children for something that the child has no control over, me and my God will be having some WORDS. (loving words of course!)

N0help4u · Jul 13, 2009, 03:19 PM

We are not born IN sin as some explain but we are born IN a sinful nature that no matter how hard any one of us could have tried from birth on we would sin and fall short because it is in our nature to sin. We are born in a sin nature but it is a bit different than being born a sinner IN sin as if we actually committed a sin.
We aren't born like we sinned simply by being born.

s_cianci · Jul 13, 2009, 03:24 PM

What happens to a week-old baby who dies?

If one of the parents is a believer, then there's no question because the scriptures say that the child is sanctified by the believing parent. Now if neither parent is a believer then that's more difficult to answer. Obviously a week-old baby is not consciously guilty of rejecting Christ, although that same week-old baby is born in sin, having inherited Adam's original sin, the same as all of us. So in that case I don't know the answer to your question.