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cadillac59 · Aug 6, 2009, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

To me it is a fine line like I am replying to a guy about how to come out of the closet to find out if this other guy is gay. In the meantime I don't condone it and I know what God has to say about it but I know people are going to do what they are going to do. I can't really change that. I don't really accept it but I don't have any negative or ill feelings toward them either. I think that is on God to take care of however he sees fit.
I don't think it is any more right to go against gays, be homophobic or whatever you want to call it any more than it is to have an attitude toward people who go to strip clubs and things like that. Sins do not come in degrees. Man labels sin as mortal or vinal or whatever.
We are all sinners. We either ask God's forgiveness or we don't.

But being gay is not like going to or wanting to go to a strip club. It's not like being unfaithful to a spouse or having trouble with fidelity. It's a state of being, like being white, black, short or tall. It's an immutable part of a person, exactly like being heterosexual is an unchangeable part of a person and their being. It's not a choice and it is not a disease. It's a naturally occurring state of being that transcends culture or religion. There's nothing about being gay that needs forgiveness anymore than being straight requires forgiveness.

N0help4u · Aug 6, 2009, 07:34 PM

Yeah I understand that but from a Christian perspective the Bible says that anything short of being faithful in a husband/wife marriage is sexual impurity so that is what I am saying that Christians seem to judge gay people more than they judge the christian that goes and cheats on his wife or something which is wrong to judge this way.

cadillac59 · Aug 6, 2009, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by N0help4u

yeah I understand that but from a Christian perspective the Bible says that anything short of being faithful in a husband/wife marriage is sexual impurity so that is what I am saying that Christians seem to judge gay people more than they judge the christian that goes and cheats on his wife or something which is wrong to judge this way.

It does seem that they do treat gay people differently, yes. And it is wrong. But I think that the larger problem is with religion in the first place. That's the underlying poison.

cogs · Aug 6, 2009, 07:56 PM

Cadillac, I can't ignore the bible's witness of god. What you refer to as religion, is perhaps tradition. Human nature's tendency could take god's desire to see men move away from being gay, and make an opportunity to hate gay people. This is error, because there's no love and forgiveness in order to make peace with god.

cadillac59 · Aug 6, 2009, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by cogs

cadillac, i can't ignore the bible's witness of god. what you refer to as religion, is perhaps tradition. human nature's tendency could take god's desire to see men move away from being gay, and make an opportunity to hate gay people. this is error, because there's no love and forgiveness in order to make peace with god.

I don't understand what you mean by there's no love and forgiveness in order to make peace with god.

When I say religion, I'm referring to Christianity and all other theistic belief systems, beliefs that say god exists and intervenes in human affairs, cares about people, relates to individuals, that sort of thing.

Deism is a maybe. That's the belief that a god exists as an impersonal force in the universe, a first cause perhaps, a being that does not intervene in human affairs and does not care about human behavior. Now that makes sense, possibly. But that's not a religion. I might be tempted in the direction of deism, but it is just as easy to say and somewhat more plausible to say that god does not exist. There's no god of the Bible just as there is no Thor, or Poseidon. I always thought it was funny the way so many people will accept the god of the Old and New Testaments but not accept the Norse belief of an 8-legged horse living behind the clouds. I fail to see how anyone can say one is more likely to be true than the other.

arcura · Aug 6, 2009, 10:29 PM

Gogs,
Yes God is a God of peace and Jesus is the peace maker.
By the way not all Christians will not accept a gay person for who that person is and not for what that person does.
I accept them for they are God's children and I know some whom I admire for being admirable people.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

cadillac59 · Aug 6, 2009, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Gogs,
Yes God is a God of peace and Jesus is the peace maker.
By the way not all Christians will not accept a gay person for who that person is and not for what that person does.
I accept them for they are God's children and I know some whom I admire for being admirable people.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Before deciding to leave Christianity (I was ELCA Lutheran) I had contemplated finding a gay church. But then I decided that even those churches were outside mainstream Christian thinking and I had to doubt that they had really considered the ramifications of remaining in the faith. Hence, Christianity became suspect to me, I considered whether I really believed any of it, decided I did not, and that I could not remain in it.

arcura · Aug 6, 2009, 10:50 PM

cadillac59,
Thanks for your explanation.
I hope you find a Christian Church that you feel comfortable with.
If not I hope you have a happy life.
Fred

cadillac59 · Aug 6, 2009, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

cadillac59,
Thanks for your explanation.
I hope you find a Christian Church that you feel comfortable with.
If not I hope you have a happy life.
Fred

Well, thanks for the well-wishing. I had to laugh because I just visited the board on mythology and spirituality, or whatever it is called, and one person had a question: every time she and he new boyfriend go for a walk they see a big black or brown furry dog that looks like a bear and she was wondering of this had any spiritual significance or if it was a bad omen. I had to laugh, but I can imagine if anything bad happens to this lady or her boyfriend they are going to blame it on some big furry dog. It's not hard to see how religions got started.

arcura · Aug 6, 2009, 11:26 PM

cadillac59,
Some People have been superstitious for many centuries and some have started some odd religions, but that does not mean that all religions have no true spiritual basis.
I believe that we are all spiritual being made up of mind body and spirit, a trinity somewhat like God is a trinity.
I also believe that that dog may be a bad omen for them ONLY because they made it that way.
It would have been better if they thought that it was a sign of good luck.
That way if something good happened they could be happy rather than be frightened of that animal.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

cadillac59 · Aug 6, 2009, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

cadillac59,
Some People have been superstitious for many centuries and some have started some odd religions, but that does not mean that all religions have no true spiritual basis.
I believe that we are all spiritual being made up of mind body and spirit, a trinity somewhat like God is a trinity.
I also believe that that dog may be a bad omen for them ONLY because they made it that way.
It would have been better if they thought that it was a sign of good luck.
That way if something good happened they could be happy rather than be frightened of that animal.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

But isn't all religion just grounded on superstition? Aren't they all really the same? An ancient account of something passed on from one to the other with no rhyme or reason behind any of it? They all originated at a time when man knew nothing of the world around him.

Middle Eastern sheepherders who thought the earth was flat wrote the Bible a few thousand years ago. That sums it all up for me. Believing in a big black furry dog omen makes about as much sense for me as believing the Bible.

N0help4u · Aug 7, 2009, 04:22 AM

But isn't all religion just grounded on superstition?

Not superstition. Mans tradition.

An ancient account of something passed on from one to the other with no rhyme or reason behind any of it? They all originated at a time when man knew nothing of the world around him.

Precisely they KNEW NOTHING of the world around them yet there are many things (scientific) said in the Bible that men of those times had no knowledge of.

Middle Eastern sheepherders who thought the earth was flat wrote the Bible a few thousand years ago. That sums it all up for me. Believing in a big black furry dog omen makes about as much sense for me as believing the Bible.

Yeah they thought the earth was flat so why would they put in the old testament that it was a orb.

arcura · Aug 7, 2009, 09:26 PM

cadillac59,
No, I do not believe that.
There are far too many things mentioned in the bible that point to its authenticity.
Modern archaeology has authenticated much of the Old and New Testaments.
Not only that but the fact that many of the prophesies in the old and new testaments have come true.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

cadillac59 · Aug 8, 2009, 01:16 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

cadillac59,
No, I do not believe that.
There are far too many things mentioned in the bible that point to its authenticity.
Modern archaeology has authenticated much of the Old and New Testaments.
Not only that but the fact that many of the prophesies in the old and new testaments have come true.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Well, I've never believed the bible was literally true. Noah and the Arch is a fairytale, as is Jonah and the Whale, Adam and Eve, the 6-day creation story and on and on. Make-believe mythology is all it is or was. I don't believe in the atonement or any of that either.

Twink24 · Aug 8, 2009, 02:14 AM

(this is just what I believe) Before Jesus, any sinning (even the tiniest of sins such as a swear or stealing a cookie) was bad enough to send you to hell, don't get me wrong god loved us and did not want to send us to hell but there was such a separation from god that no one was able to cross into heaven. And even all of your good deeds going to church etc did not erase your sins. When Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the grave he paid the penalty for our sins and bridged the gap between God and people. So basically Jesus Christ gave us a clean slate and it is like a gift from Jesus that everyone is allowed into heaven. As long as you admit that you are a sinner, that your willing to turn away from your sins (repent), as long as you believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and rose from the grave, and through prayer invite Jesus to come in and control your life through holy spirit (receive him as lord and savior).
Please not nasty comments, this is only what I believe.

cadillac59 · Aug 8, 2009, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Twink24

(this is just what i believe) Before Jesus, any sinning (even the tiniest of sins such as a swear or stealing a cookie) was bad enough to send you to hell, don't get me wrong god loved us and did not want to send us to hell but there was such a separation from god that no one was able to cross into heaven. And even all of your good deeds going to church etc did not erase your sins. When Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose from the grave he paid the penalty for our sins and bridged the gap between God and people. So basically Jesus Christ gave us a clean slate and it is like a gift from Jesus that everyone is allowed into heaven. As long as you admit that you are a sinner, that your willing to turn away from your sins (repent), as long as you believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and rose from the grave, and through prayer invite Jesus to come in and control your life through holy spirit (receive him as lord and savior).
Please not nasty comments, this is only what I believe.

No nasty comments, but there's no hell in the old testament.

Twink24 · Aug 8, 2009, 02:31 PM

Judykaytee I just explained to you and EVERYONE else that this is just what I BELIEVE.
You want to contradict me go right on ahead. No I wasn't taught in a catholic church, no I never went to church, no I didn't learn all the basic things that apparently you learned about religion, I was not part of a religious family I honestly don't even know what the 'old testament' is/was. But this is what I believe and you can't take that away from me. I was Just stating what it was that I believed and even if there is no 'hell' reference in the 'old testament' I still believe in what I said along those lines. And if you think that "well maybe i shouldn't be on the religious posts then" Well I am allowed to post what I believe in and this post just struck me as interesting because I just started believing a couple months ago.

JudyKayTee · Aug 8, 2009, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Twink24

judykaytee I just explained to you and EVERYONE else that this is just what I BELIEVE.
You want to contradict me go right on ahead. No I wasn't taught in a catholic church, no i never went to church, no I didn't learn all the basic things that apparently you learned about religion, i was not part of a religious family I honestly don't even know what the 'old testament' is/was. But this is what i believe and you can't take that away from me. I was Just stating what it was that I believed and even if there is no 'hell' reference in the 'old testament' i still believe in what i said along those lines. And if you think that "well maybe i shouldn't be on the religious posts then" Well I am allowed to post what I believe in and this post just struck me as interesting because I just started believing a couple months ago.

Please stop PM'ing me. You are getting boring and I don't read any of them.

I didn't see anyone saying anything about the Catholic Church except, of course, for you. I don't even know how the Catholic Church became part of this discussion. At any rate, the Catholic Church is not the only Church that reads and believes the Old Testament.

You can believe whatever you like, certainly. Nobody is telling you not to. The question is your reference to stealing a cookie and being condemned to Hell prior to the birth of Jesus Christ. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask the basis of that belief. You say you just became a believer - what is it that you are studying and believing?

And, yes, you are allowed to post what you believe in - but you should also expect to be questioned when you are posting a religious belief on a Christian Board and your belief is totally unfamiliar - and, in fact, alien - to what other people who have studied the Christian faith believe.

I also notice no matter how many people disagree with you I'm the one you jump on.

arcura · Aug 8, 2009, 09:32 PM

JudyKayTee,
Yes, before Jesus there was several ways to get forgiveness of sins.
The Old Testament tells us of them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Twink24 · Aug 8, 2009, 10:27 PM

Judykaytee, it seems as though you are constantly following my posts and its getting rather irritating, which is why I jump to you first seeing as you seem to be the most 'interested' in what I have to say. The 'pm' was asking why it was you won't leave ME alone. Like I said I wasn't AT ALL taught in the christian belief I suppose I shouldn't have said christian, because what I meant was I have not been a part of ANY religion and I truly don't know which religion it really is that I am referring to when I talk about what it is I believe in, I just know it's a belief maybe not a christian one, but it is a belief. You may not agree with me, (which seems to be an ongoing thing) but you don't have to constantly study into a religion/belief to believe in it.