Check out some similar questions!

TheJodester · Jul 13, 2009, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by tkrussell

Yes, I mentioned it here:

Plus I bet I can find a problem with your grounding system.

So far you spoke to a tree guy, a pool guy, and a couple of utility guys, notice how they seem to be not forthcoming sometimes?

Who came up with the idea of driving a ground rod? The utility? Nevermind the legalities of them on your property doing electrical work, they are not trained electricians and do not know building grounding. Esp pools.

Be sure the rod gets disconnected and abandoned.

Any plans for an electrician coming by soon?

Even if there is a problem with our grounding system, if they shut off our power at the meter and the problem persists, wouldn't that mean that there is current coming from somewhere else? And there shouldn't be, right? Also, how would we determine if there is a problem with our system?

My next door neighbor, who works for systems operations at the utility, does not think the downed wire has anything to do with it. He's convinced it's something underground (counterpoints or something), and agrees that it's definitely not us. He's going to try to make some calls on our behalf.

The ground rod was the utility servicemen's idea. Once it made no difference, and even seemed to worsen the problem, I decided to ask them to remove it when they return tomorrow.

I want to pursue the utility until at least I can get an engineer out here. At that point, we will consider getting a private electrician. Or a lawyer. Or both.

KISS · Jul 13, 2009, 05:56 PM

One thing that can be done is to place a clamp-on relatively sensitive ammeter on your neighbor's and your water pipe where it enters the houses. It can offer some clues.

That ground rod might be useful until the problem is solved. They should remove the bond though.

Stratmando · Jul 13, 2009, 06:30 PM

Has utility verified it is not coming in on the Neutral?

TheJodester · Jul 13, 2009, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by Stratmando

Has utility verified it is not coming in on the Neutral?

I know they put the meter around the neutral in the meter box, and everything there was fine. Is that what you mean?

Stratmando · Jul 14, 2009, 04:33 AM

Was it an Ampmeter? And wondering if they removed Neutral from Top of Meter Can for test, as well.

TheJodester · Jul 14, 2009, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Stratmando

Was it an Ampmeter? And wondering if they removed Neutral from Top of Meter Can for test, as well.

The meter was handheld, with one red and one black wire coming from it, each with a probe at the end. Also, there was a "pincer" looking thing at the top of it which they used to surround various pipes and wires to test for current. It had a digital readout, and a dial on the front that looked like it may have switched the display from volts to amps or whatever, but the purpose of the dial I'm not sure about. I do know that when they clicked it around, numbers on the display changed.

Don't know if they actually removed the neutral from the top of the can. I'll ask next time someone comes.

Stratmando · Jul 14, 2009, 06:47 AM

Quote "Don't know if they actually removed the neutral from the top of the can. I'll ask next time someone comes".
Good deal.
They likely measured Current and Voltage.
Hope so. Good Luck

TheJodester · Jul 14, 2009, 11:48 AM

PROBLEM SOLVED!!

So, after doing more tree removal a block over where the line went down, and then repairing the line, THE SHOCKS ARE GONE!

While I was out, they did remove the bond from the ground rod, although they left the rod as is. I think my husband will ask that they remove it, too.

My husband says that the guy was getting some sort of reading around our box (perhaps the neutral?), so that's why they are still supposedly going to replace our service. This was unrelated to the pool problem.

I am pleasantly surprised. After my utility-employee-neighbor expressed doubts that the fallen line had anything to do with our problem, I was pessimistic. But lo and behold! And it only took a week and a day. ;-)

Thank you all for your input. Your suggestions gave us lots to work with and go to the "powers" that be (excuse the pun) with.

tkrussell · Jul 14, 2009, 12:12 PM

I am glad to hear the stray voltage is gone.

Last time I will insist that there is something that needs repair with your system and pool grounding.

I promise.

Hmm, the utility is going to replace your service?

I been doing this too long to buy what they are telling you.

KISS · Jul 14, 2009, 12:40 PM

I think that this one is good enough to make it a sticky all it's own. Who would have expected something a block away causing the problem.

tkrussell · Jul 14, 2009, 02:15 PM

Was going to edited my other best, best to add here I think.

Let me a bit clearer, I do believe the stray is coming from the overhead utility system.

One of their grounds probably failed and sent neutral currents, faults, etc out looking for a ground. This often is sent to services connected nearby. Properly grounded systems in buildings keep all voltages to zero or earth potentials on all intentionally grounded surfaces.

No one ever notices.

Since a loose or broken connection or wire out on the utility can happen, so can happen, often, in buildings. For any metal , esp around a pool, to get energized to noticeable levels, is a dead giveaway to a loose or broken connection, with the pool grounding.

Thinking about making a Best Of Sticky thread, Kiss.

KISS · Jul 14, 2009, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by tkrussell

Since a loose or broken connection or wire out on the utility can happen, so can happen, often, in buildings. For any metal , esp around a pool, to get energized to noticeable levels, is a dead giveaway to a loose or broken connection, with the pool grounding.

Since I had to read it twice, I'll try an alternate version of the above.

Had an equipotential grid been installed, you would have not gotten shocked. The equipotential grid would have protected you against the "utility" fault. "Utility" can mean anywhere along the system including your own home or your neighbor's.

TheJodester · Jul 15, 2009, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by tkrussell

I am glad to hear the stray voltage is gone.

Last time I will insist that there is something that needs repair with your system and pool grounding.

I promise.

Hmm, the utility is going to replace your service?

I been doing this too long to buy what they are telling you.

So, you're saying that if our pool grounding system was what it should be, then even if there was stray voltage from another source, we still shouldn't feel it?

Could you elaborate on what makes you suspicious about them replacing the service?

A little postscript -- the problem actually is not completely resolved. After I posted yesterday, we got a message from a guy explaining that although the voltage was greatly reduced, there is still voltage (he measured 2.8 in one spot where it was formerly around 14 volts). I can no longer feel it with my hand, but my husband can still feel a slight tingle on a cut he has. The are coming back today to do further investigation -- hopefully this time with an engineer.

TheJodester · Jul 15, 2009, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleStupid

Had an equipotential grid been installed, you would have not gotten shocked. The equipotential grid would have protected you against the "utility" fault. "Utility" can mean anywhere along the system including your own home or your neighbor's.

I see what you're saying (sorry -- didn't see your post when I posted my previous message). Well, at this point, since the problem doesn't seem to be with the grounding wires that connect directly to the two pump motors (one for the filter, one for the spa), then it would have to be underground. Finding out/repairing that would involve destroying and then reinstalling our patio, which is an expense well beyond our means right now. So, at the very least, we will continue to push to remove any stray voltage that shouldn't be there in the first place.

However, one of the higher-up guys who was here said he firmly believes there is nothing wrong with our pool grounding. Any ideas on how he could be so sure of this?

Stratmando · Jul 15, 2009, 06:13 AM

Before the problem was fixed, he measured voltage and current on your ground, when tree and wiring were corrected and the voltage gone, He felt everything is back where it should be?

KISS · Jul 15, 2009, 07:31 AM

You would only have to redo 5 feet minimum around the pool.

TheJodester · Jul 15, 2009, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Stratmando

Before the problem was fixed, he measured voltage and current on your ground, when tree and wiring were corrected and the voltage gone, He felt everything is back where it should be?

No, actually, he feels the voltage should be 1 volt or less, and with one probe in the water and the other in the grass it was over 2.

At any rate, there was a group here this morning, and they did in fact replace our service. Then, when that had no effect, they went across the street to the utility tower (the one holding up the 69K volt transmission wires) and re-grounded it. Presto! Even by the pool pump ground wire, which had the highest readings originally of 14V, we're getting .2 or less.

It was explained to me that the grounding job they did is a "temporary" fix; that while it could last for years, there is an underlying problem with the counterpoise (sp?). They will be returning to do more permanent corrections to that.

So, based on these fixes, do you guys still feel we have issues with our own pool graounding system?

Stratmando · Jul 15, 2009, 03:01 PM

Your Pool could be OK, I think the problem was with their wire/tree problem, putting voltage on your neutral/ground.
I think We're all shocked they changed your Service.
I like to find the cause, they almost sound like Parts changers, if that doesn't work, change a different part?
Good this is done. Take Care

KISS · Jul 15, 2009, 04:14 PM

If you had a the equpotential grid within 5' of the pool, bonded properly faults elsewhere would not be a problem.

When you got out of the pool the deck, rail and the 5' landing strip would be at the same potential. The gradient, if there was one would diminish as you got further from the edge of the grid.

TheJodester · Jul 15, 2009, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleStupid

you would only have to redo 5 feet minimum around the pool.

So, do you mean 5 square feet?

Apparently, there are likely to be broken counterpoises throughout the system, which would take hundreds of thousands of dollars to fix permanently. I'm thinking of offering the utility this option: either we push to have those repaired, or they spend a few thousand dollars to install an equipotential grid under our patio (which they would have to rip up and then replace). Think they would go for that?