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tkrussell · Jul 8, 2009, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleStupid

Here is an interesting article concerning pavers and pools:

http://www.rctlma.org/building/conte...s_and_spas.pdf

Nice white paper, bet there is no concrete under those pavers? That is what I imagined.

KISS · Jul 8, 2009, 03:59 PM

That's what I suspected too. What I didn't expect was a 69 kV power line and a very close tree and poor soil conditions. All nasty ingredients for disaster. It's all in the details. Most people look at you funny.

I didn't know what a paver was until today.

Tk:

Think about the possibility of merging this with the other older thread and possibly making a sticky when this thread fizzles out?

tkrussell · Jul 8, 2009, 05:52 PM

I was thinking of making the other a sticky on it's own just before this one arrived,

Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleStupid

Think about the possibility of merging this with the other older thread and possibly making a sticky when this thread fizzles out?

Then this one popped up so I delayed waiting for this to come to a conclusion.

Great minds think alike.

Oh pee-eww.

I am not so sure it is the HV. The symptoms are too localized. High Voltage is not easily held captive, it goes where it wants when it wants.

KISS · Jul 8, 2009, 07:50 PM

In any event, I think the "safety net" (equipotential grid) is broken.

This discussion has been really interesting. Lots of twists and turns. Not sure where it's going to end up.

There is the return path through the plumbing, if a neighbor has a bad ground bond to consider.

Stratmando · Jul 9, 2009, 04:16 AM

How about surround the pool with a series of ground rods?

TheJodester · Jul 9, 2009, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by tkrussell

No problem, I saw the time stamp.

To answer your last question, Not necessarily, I was referring to if there were underground lines, but there have been instances where house wiring had problems because of grounding problems in your home and/or outside, even on utility poles. Look at utility poles, and any wire you see running down to the ground from above that is broken or damaged is an obvious reason.

Interesting. On one of the black lines at the front of the house running from a telephone pole, the trimmer showed me how the tree against it had given it a "chewed" appearance.

About the grounding problems in the home (the tree foreman suggested there might be loose grounding wires under the circuit board, and that turning off the main wouldn't necessarily stop current in that case. But even so, when the utility serviceman went around the house with his meter, saying everything seemed "beautifully balanced," would that be if there were loose grounding wires?

In the meantime, the tree foreman (who is being very helpful) told me he is contacting a fellow at the utility who has dealt with this issue before -- to the extent where his nickname is "the pool shock guy." Hopefully he'll contact me today. Also, I left a message for the electrician at the pool company who said he had a friend with a similar problem, and that the utility came and corrected it. My message asked him to find out exactly what they did.

KISS · Jul 9, 2009, 08:25 AM

What can happen, is that you can have the balanced connection, but a neighbor might not.

Let's say his ground is not connected to earth by via a ground rod. His system finds a path to your ground rod, via buried water pipes.

That current, if it runs through the pool will set up a gradient of voltage. Current measured through the water pipe with a clamp on meter is a dead giveaway.

TheJodester · Jul 10, 2009, 04:55 PM

Here's the latest -- another utility serviceman came by this evening and went around our property again with his meter. Even cutting off our service at the meter, still gets 4 volts when touching pool and wet pavers; when touching wet pavers and soil farther from the pool gets 10 volts, and so on. He also went to our neighbor's property and got no voltage there. He swears it's nothing to do with anything on our property, that it's the utility's problem. He theorizes that our pool has a "better ground" than the utility does (being more recently installed, perhaps?) and that the electricity is finding its way to us because of that. He says that they will get engineers out here to investigate further, as well as "replacing the service," which he says is really not the problem, but they will do anyway as part of a process-of-elimination tactic.

I'll keep you posted!

TheJodester · Jul 10, 2009, 04:57 PM

Oh -- and he says that all the rain we've had (it rained something like 25 out of 30 days in June here on Long Island, NY, plus another few inches so far in July) could have raised the water table (normally around 50 feet down) and be contributing to our recent discovery of the problem.

Stratmando · Jul 10, 2009, 05:18 PM

It all sounds odd, replacing the Service is really ODD. You should not have to pay any money for this, if they do.

Stratmando · Jul 10, 2009, 05:20 PM

May not be related, but I ran into someone getting shocked in their Bath tub, Turned out Tub was set on top of a phone wire, when it rang, they felt it?

ballengerb1 · Jul 10, 2009, 05:39 PM

Do you have any low voltage landscaping lights?

TheJodester · Jul 10, 2009, 06:43 PM

Oh, I'm certainly not paying for it!

But everything is starting to make sense to me. Our pool guy told us there's grounding wire from the handrails and running all around the pool. Realizing that the strongest shocks in the pavers seem to be directly in between the two handrails by the steps, I was suddenly able to envision the grounding wires running from each handrail like a V and then to the grounding wire that runs the perimeter of the pool. This would explain why I do feel very slight (only with my cut finger) shocks all around the pool, and finally gives me an explanation of why I would get a shock in my spa when I have one hand in there and the other in the pool! It's because the handrail to the spa also has a grounding wire connected to everything -- but the difference between the handrail of the spa and the handrails by the steps is that the spa handrail GOES INTO THE WATER! The step handrails go only into the patio! Being that the spa is a plastic circle, it contains the current from the handrail even though the water circulates throughout the whole system! Therefore, by touching the charged water in the spa and then touching the pool water without touching the plastic side of the spa completes the circuit and creates a shock! So I can totally see what the serviceman is saying when he says current from the poorer utility ground is seeking out our pool's grounding system.

TheJodester · Jul 10, 2009, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by ballengerb1

Do you have any low voltage landscaping lights?

No, I do not. The only ones we had were solar, and are no longer in use.

ballengerb1 · Jul 10, 2009, 06:44 PM

Worth a shot

TheJodester · Jul 11, 2009, 01:45 PM

Oops -- made a mistake. The spa handrail does NOT go into the water.

TheJodester · Jul 13, 2009, 08:11 AM

Well! A new development. Another service crew was here today doing what everyone else has already done, such as shutting off our service and still getting voltage. They, however, found stronger voltage near our pool pump system. So, they decided to drive a copper grounding rod into the ground near there, by the fence, and ran an insulated grounding wire from there to the grounding wire on the pump motor. Their theory was that there was something wrong with our pool grounding system, and that the rod would dissipate it. However, while it did reduce the voltage at the pump motor ground wire (from about 15v to 9v), the voltage at the pool steps and patio was unchanged -- if anything, a little higher (4v to 4.5v). Their theory didn't hold water to me (albeit I'm a novice), since if the pool ground's purpose is to ground OUR electrical system, and it still happens with the main power off, that electricity is coming from somewhere else, and there shouldn't be any. Period.

While one guy was driving the copper rod, a fourth guy showed up. "I need one of you guys to come with me for a minute," he said in a somewhat mysterious way. "We need to go around the corner." So one of the guys went off with him. When he returned, it was just as we were discovering the grounding rod had had no real effect on the pool voltage, and he said, "We gotta go." It turns out this guy that showed up had discovered that the next transmission tower over had been hit by lightning, likely right around the time we started noticing the shock. There was a pretty heavy storm on July 3 that dropped nearly an inch of rain on my zip code. I was told then that a line service crew would be coming out there today and probably be working on it all day, and that these guys would be back tomorrow to test and see if that repair fixes our problem.

The key here, I think, is what the tree foreman told us -- "Don't let anyone try to tell you this is your fault. This has absolutely nothing to do with your property." Hopefully this lightning-struck tower is the answer.

TheJodester · Jul 13, 2009, 10:15 AM

Correction -- it's not the transmission wire, but the primary distribution (and I think he said also a neutral wire) that is down on the ground one block over. Do you guys think this is the explanation for our pool shocks?

Stratmando · Jul 13, 2009, 11:11 AM

We'll find out, I still think it may be a Neighbors house.
Don't know if you answered, but, Undrground services around your house?

tkrussell · Jul 13, 2009, 01:19 PM

Yes, I mentioned it here:

Originally Posted by tkrussell

Home wiring and overhead utility systems are more prone to bad installations (homes), and wear and tear, both homes and utilities.

Plus I bet I can find a problem with your grounding system.

So far you spoke to a tree guy, a pool guy, and a couple of utility guys, notice how they seem to be not forthcoming sometimes?

Who came up with the idea of driving a ground rod? The utility? Never mind the legalities of them on your property doing electrical work, they are not trained electricians and do not know building grounding. Esp pools.

Be sure the rod gets disconnected and abandoned.

Any plans for an electrician coming by soon?