[Milo Dolezal]

I PM'd a few of the Tilesetters I have worked with over the years last night, and they said that the edge between the tub and the bottom course of tile should be caulked with an elastomeric caulk -- In most cases they buy a tube of color matched sanded caulk when they buy their grout for the job.

The reason being that a grouted joint will crack as the tub flexes, particularly composite tubs like the Americast.

Mark, tell your tile men to fill up the acrylic tub before they apply fortified grout. Drain water from tub after grout cures and is sealed.

As I found out from my experience, most of tile setters are too cheap to spend extra $30.00 for acrylic ad-mix and use clean water to mix grout with instead. Also, without filled tub during grouting - crack will develop later on.

And on personal note: do not buy / install tubs that flex. You setting yourself up for trouble.

[massplumber2008]

Milo... you keep trying to make this about me and I have tried to point out the facts three times now...

I will state the simple fact one last time... THE MANUFACTURER OF THIS TUB REQUIRES THAT A FLEXIBLE SEALANT BE INSTALLED BETWEEN THE TILE AND/OR THE TUB SURROUND.

Why are you continuing to ignore that..?

MARK

[Milo Dolezal]

Mark, forward me the instructions...

[massplumber2008]

Here they are Milo:

http://www.americanstandard-us.com/a...stall_1011.pdf

Page #2, illustration #4 OR page #4, illustration #4... ;)

Here's another... americast whirlpool here... ;)

http://www.americanstandard-us.com/a...nstall_349.pdf

Page #2 and Page #10

All the other americast tubs show the same thing... ;)

Just presenting the facts here... Let me know what you think!

MARK

[Bljack]

Milo and Mark, if you two can't play nice, you're both going in time out :p

Grouting changes in plane is a regional difference, mostly done in California where mudwork is prevailing and the tile assemblies act as one monolithic structure vs. what you see elsewhere with cement board wall section meeting and acting independent of the adjoining cement board wall section.

Grouting along the tub as Milo suggested is the same as the caulk should be applied, the difference being that when the water is drained, the caulk compresses but when the water is drained and the tub/wall joint has been grouted, the compressive strength of the grout keeps the tub ledge pushed down as it was when filled with water. However, the grout is by no means remaining sealed to that tub and therefore is not creating a water tight seal against the tub.

The correct answer is that according to industry guidelines ANSI A108.1 Paragraph 3.7.2, which is part of where requirement of movement joints are covered, includes "terminations of tilework where it would abut restraining or dissimilar surfaces" and therefor the joint should be caulked, not grouted.

It's also detailed in TCNA method EJ-171 to give the detail on how they are to be constructed, minimum placements, minimum sizes, etc.


FYI... except in very limited uses, the mixing of an acrylic or latex additive in place of clean water with an already modifed grout or thinset makes for a weaker grout or thinset as there is not enough water content to properly hydrate the portland cement content of the thinset or grout nor enough water to re-emulsify the spray dried polymers within the bag of thinset or grout.


Now if I may, can I invite my plumber along and the 3 of you can debate his pvc liners, Mark's copper pans, and Milo's tar pit pans. :) Got to love those regional variations.

[Milo Dolezal]

Mark, yes, you are wrong...

Do you have another set of instructions to prove it ? Just cut and paste the important part - don't let me read the whole thing again like an apprentice.

[massplumber2008]

Milo... You are wrong.. AGAIN!

I told you the page and the freakin' image number at both posts..? Do I have to hold your hand and read it to you!.

What the hell are you talkin' about?

Are you missin' BLJACK'S posts as well..? Or Growlers'..? Why are you singling me out??

[Milo Dolezal]

Calm down, Mark... it is OK to be wrong...

There is nowhere mention of using "caulk" where tile meets tub. If I overlooked it - then cut 'n' paste it here for me. Appreciate it.. :D

[massplumber2008]

You are a blind man Milo...

Jesus! The images are posted at the site and clearly show the ADHESIVE or sealants. Really, now... A RETARD could understand the links and the images I showed you!!

I'll let others decide here since you seem to want to play games!

All others please go to the links provided by me at POST #24... exactly as posted showing you all the images and tell us what you think. Do you see grout in ALL the images or do you see sealants and adhesives..?

Never mind, once again Milo... you are the only one advocating GROUT here.. really, you need to grow up a bit huh.. I thought you were just playin'... now I can see you are just being a JERK!

MARK

[Milo Dolezal]

Mark, no matter how big letters you use to write your responses, and how bold you make them - you are not correct. Let me know when you calm down. I don't really feel like dealing with emotional person and be called names on this beautiful , sunny, afternoon. If you want to discuss it, let me know when you are ready. In the meantime, Mark, there is nothing wrong with being wrong.. :D

[massplumber2008]

Milo... you are a retard and you just keep proving it here... ;)

How is that you missed this MILO? I tried only to present the manufacturer's recommendations and you made a big deal including discounting these images I showed you the page number and the image number to find..?

Let everyone else decide... does this look like GROUT or CAULKING SEALANT..?

These images are available at the link above just to prove that Milo's just hurting this post... not helping anyone!. :)


Thanks...

MARK

[Milo Dolezal]

Mark, I think if there is a retard in this Forum - so it is you. Nowhere in the enclosed instructions - that you had me to read twice - does manufacturer calls for "...flexible sealant..." or "...caulk..." as you try to make everybody here to believe. Period. You are wrong - and at the same time, not enough a man to admit it calling people derogatory names in the process.

It is you who incorrectly interprets "sealant" as "flexible caulk" or "caulk"...

No need to apologize for your ignorance - you are already forgiven. :D

FYI: Enclosed is Princeton definition of Sealant:

[massplumber2008]

Milo... can you see the pictures or not?

Kim... sorry to hijack this post... never intended too! The manufacturer, and the other professionals here (except Milo) recommend using flexible sealant (silicone, mildew-resistant caulking, etc... ).

I think it best for you to call American Standard and check with them on this issue! I also think it is a good idea for Milo to call, too!

Good luck!

MARK

[speedball1]

:Listening to you guys just makes me certain that I made the right choice to stay the hell out of remodels and stick with new construction and warranty repair.\
Now, to me. If the tub's plastic and will flex it's only good sense to use a caulk that won't crack. In most of our condos, except the pricey ones out on the keys and beach, we used steel tubs. Marks posting manufactures directions. Mi;lo, do you have a issue with those directions? Are installations so different from one coast to another? Since, clearly there can no meeting of the minds here this exchange should end now. You are both good plumbers and I value your opinions bet let's not lose track of why we're here and I don't see the asker getting much out of this.
Regards, tom

[kimberly600]

Ok guys -
The plumber came. Took out a piece of the ceiling below which was pretty dry at this point ( a week later) but sure enough he found a leak. Something about the gasket installation not quite right... plus the putty. Seem's okay now - but we're still not using the tub/shower. Not feeling at all confident about the caulk/grout issue (not that I want to get that debate started again!) with daily, multiple use, and looking into the possibility of redoing the whole thing. Not sure I can quite wrap my head around that yet, but it is a thought.
I'm grateful for all the valuable input - K

[speedball1]

Kim,
Thanks for the update and putting this discussion to rest. Tom

[iamgrowler]

Ok guys -
The plumber came. Took out a piece of the ceiling below which was pretty dry at this point ( a week later) but sure enough he found a leak. Something about the gasket installation not quite right... plus the putty.

Sounds like the drain shoe wasn't properly puttied and tightened -- And it likely leaked at the overflow as well.

All of these are rookie mistakes that can be discovered and corrected by filling the tub up past the overflow and visually inspected *before* the wallboard goes up.

Seem's okay now - but we're still not using the tub/shower. Not feeling at all confident about the caulk/grout issue (not that I want to get that debate started again!) with daily, multiple use, and looking into the possibility of redoing the whole thing. Not sure I can quite wrap my head around that yet, but it is a thought.
I'm grateful for all the valuable input - K

My gut tells me the tile job is likely water tight and would be servicable -- A quick way to tell would be to run the shower for 30 minutes while the ceiling down below is still open and visually check for leaks.

As for the grout/caulk issue at the tub tile transition, a person with a very steady hand and a grout saw (definitely not your tilesetter) could remove the grout and caulk the joint with a good quality elastomeric caulk.

To me, the larger issue is the visual aspect -- If it were me, I'd rip the tile and wallboard out to the bare studs and start all over from scratch with a competent tilesetter who will take the time to furr the walls out with butt strips to correct any deficiencies in the framing.

[pare_john]

Starting tile in a corner has nothing to do with uneven grout line.