[Morganite]

BTW

I almost lost my life at the hands of Beijing airport taxi and hotel reservation employee ruffians who went about as if no law at all existed there. Strange for a land which punishes crime so severely

You ought not to upset foreigners in their own country.

Published on Tuesday, April 5, 2005 by the Independent/UK
China Leads Death List as Number of Executions Around the World Soars
by Anne Penketh, Diplomatic Editor


Executions around the world are nearing record levels, and the Unites States is among the four countries which account for 97 per cent of the total, a report has found.

At least 3,797 people were executed in 25 countries in 2004, according to a report released today by Amnesty International.

The report says China easily operates the most stringent capital punishment regime, with an estimated 3,400 executions last year. In second place, Iran executed at least 159, Vietnam at least 64, and 59 prisoners were put to death in the US.

The number of executions worldwide last year was the highest since 1996, when 4,272 were carried out.

No official figures are available for China's execution rate, and Amnesty has changed the method it uses to calculate the number of executions there. According to Amnesty's report for 2003 China carried out at least 726 executions. The much higher figure of 3,400 executed last year is an estimate based on internet reports of trials, although it is still described as the "tip of the iceberg".

Kate Allen, Amnesty International's UK director, said China's record was "genuinely frightening". Amnesty quoted a delegate at the National People's Congress in March last year, who said that "nearly 10,000" people were executed every year in China. Corruption is among the crimes which carries the death penalty.

Ms Allen said: "It is deeply disturbing that the vast majority of those executed in the world last year did not even have fair trials, and many were convicted on the basis of 'evidence' extracted under torture.

"The death penalty is cruel and unnecessary, does not deter crime, and runs the risk of killing the wrongly convicted. It is time to consign the death penalty to the dustbin of history." Yet the figures conceal a trend that shows a general move towards abolition. "The world continued to move closer to the universal abolition of capital punishment during 2004," the report says.

Five countries abolished the death penalty for all crimes last year - Bhutan, Greece, Samoa, Senegal and Turkey. This means that 120 countries have abolished the death penalty in law or practice.

Although the US has become accustomed to being named in the grim league table alongside states such as Iran, which it has branded an "outpost of tyranny," there were fewer executions compared with 2003, when 65 were held. Two prisoners with long histories of mental illness were put to death in the US, but the Supreme Court ruled that imposing death sentences against child offenders contravened the US constitution.

In several of the 38 American states where the death penalty is still legal, the lawfulness of lethal injection has been challenged on the grounds that one of the chemicals used may mask a prisoner's suffering.

Amnesty says that six prisoners on death row in the US were released last year after they were found innocent.

Kenny Richey, a Scotsman, whose conviction for murder and arson was overturned on appeal earlier this year, is still at risk of execution because Ohio prosecutors are trying to have the decision overturned.

Ms Allen said: "Last year I visited Scotsman Kenny Richey on death row in Ohio and saw the true wretchedness of a system that can condemn someone to years of calculated cruelty as they await death at the hands of the state.

"Even now Kenny is effectively suspended between life and death. We want to see Ohio prosecutors accept the senior state court's decision and release Kenny immediately," Ms Allen said.

In some countries, such as Vietnam, it remains a state secret to reveal the number of executions carried out. Video evidence of North Korea's execution of defectors was produced last week in a video released by a Japanese non-governmental organization.

MOST EXECUTIONS

Total in 2004

1 China 3,400*

2 Iran 159*

3 Vietnam 64*

4 United States 59*

5 Saudi Arabia 33*

6 Pakistan 15*

7 Kuwait 9*

8 Bangladesh 7*

9= Egypt 6*

= Singapore 6*

= Yemen 6*

*Minimum

© 2005 Independent News & Media (UK) Ltd.

Sky News has obtained chilling new evidence of mobile execution buses being used by the Chinese government.

It comes less than two years before China hosts the next Olympics - an event it was given after promising to improve its human rights record.

China's penal system is surrounded by a wall of secrecy, but an investigation by Sky's China correspondent Dominic Waghorn found between 3,500 and 10,000 people are put to death each year.

The volume of executions has meant China has invented new ways of killing, mobilising and mechanising its execution system.

A brochure acquired by Sky News reveals details of China's new execution buses now operating across the country.

Fitted with lethal injection equipment they can deliver on-the-spot executions.

Sky News spoke to a number of people affected by the executions including the family of Nie Shubin who was only 20 when he was wrongly accused of rape and murder.

His mother and sister told how he was held in jail for three years, without being allowed to see his family.

Nie Shuie said: "They never let me see him after his arrest. That continued till the end. I never saw him again before he was executed.

"And nobody told us that he had been executed."

Nie was accused of attacking a woman in a field near his home, but only after his execution did another man confess to the attack.

In an exclusive report earlier this year, Sky News gathered evidence linking China's execution system and its booming organ transplant industry.

Amnesty International says the demand for transplant organs may be driving the high number of executions in China.

Even by official figures more people are executed every year in China than the rest of the world put together.

etc, etc, etc.

[bhayne]

I just saw a video smuggled out of North Korea. Three men were caught smuggling a woman from North Korea into China. All three were tied to a post and executed. They didn't seem too interested in organs. The execution was on the spot; no one came forward to admit they were related.

[NeedKarma]

I ust saw a video from North Korea where everyone was happy and singing and saying how much they love the world.

[Starman]

You ought not to upset foreigners in their own country.

.

My statement concerning my experience at the Beijing Airport wasn't meant as a contradiction to your information concerning the justice system in China. It was only
an expression of my surprise at their audacity despite their strict justice system.

As for who was to blame--please remember that I was there when certain things happened and that those who were not there are in no position to judge--especially when I haven't given the details.

[LUNAGODDESS]

My association with those of Chinese descent have proved one thing they are not cowards... if they desired to come after some one they would have done so... China understands it’s enemy... that is why China hold the largest amount U.S. currency... they invested strongly in the U.S... get over China... North Korea is in despair... it needs your attention... they will get it by any means necessary... China does not want this leader of North Korea to f*** up it’s lands... Former Secretary of State Powell stated he would not be blackmailed... in reference to North Korea... this is a poor nation... stating to the world... hate me then I will hate you... go to the table... have a conversation with this man and his people... poor on poor will bring more hatred to the west... the west needs to correct it’s problems... and clean up the mess... that should have been done after the war/conflict... North Korea has a growing population... that understands these things... I am in hunger and no one is feeding me... nor is anyone helping me take care of myself... rebuilding is the answer... terrorize and burn will only mean the end of this system of things...

[Starman]

If China is as wealthy as they are saying she is--then their shouldn't be a problem in helping the poor nation of North Korea at its border-especially when they claim to be such good friends. This strikes me as an Asiatic form of capitalistic interminable hoarding of wealth by the fortunate few while those who have very little are considered as deserving it and unworthy of any significant help.

It also comes across as weird that the Chinese were more than willing to sacrifice thousands of Chinese lives to keep North Korea communist by fighting the United States but didn't follow up by making sure that once it was that way its population would not suffer the poverty now present or that its people would not come under the present tyranny.

[Morganite]

I think we have to somehow find a way or ways to communicate with those leaders that threaten us, I am opposed to "direct" negotiation with them however and don't quite know why I think that way - I surmise that I dislike dealing with radicals, but I am sure there are ways to communicate through others. Remember the Cuban Missle Crisis and how we communicate with the Russians ? Through an American journalist talking with a Russian diplomat at a restaurant in the US. The journalist told the Russian diplomat that in return for us removing warheads from Turkey, the Russians would remove already armed warheads from Cuba and shelve their plans to install more missles in Cuba. The diplomat asked with what authority the journalist was speaking and the journalist replied from the "highest' American authority. Without lines communication open we somehow become fearful of each other.

What's wrong with face to face talks with those you esteem as enemies? Why use back door diplomacy unless you are a back door country?



:confused:

Smaller or less-developed nations with a relatively small or inferior conventional militaries present a special problem for the very reason that their military capabilities are so limited.

Faced with a vastly superior enemy, what would be the logical expectation for a smaller country about to lose a war (and all that goes with that) that, while it could not prevail with conventional arms, had a nuclear device? Of course they would use it. Given the choice between defeat and employment of atomic weapons, most governments/militaries would quickly nuke their opponents.

Nuclear weapons are seen as the great equalizer by the leadership of many smaller, third-world, and developing nations. Indeed, the United States relied on exclusive possession of atomic weapons to keep the Soviet Union at bay without having to expend tremendous sums on conventional military forces. We had 'em, they didn't, what's the worst that could happen? It was like fistfighting, only your opponent has a gun and you don't... You can't really even try to beat him. That strategy worked until the U.S.S.R., with a little help from the Rosenbergs, got their own.

Fortunately, the answer to nuclear proliferation amongst smaller nations is quite simple. They want the weapons so as to keep larger, stronger nations (like ours) at bay. They need nukes because their conventional military is inadequate. The most effective solution, therefore, is to make it clear that the U.S., or, preferably, the U.S. and allies, will attack and destroy any facility believed to be utilized for the manufacture of such weapons

As soon as we detect that Country X has developed the ability to produce weapons grade material, or a delivery system readily usable for a nuclear strike, we will destroy your research and development facility, as well as any military installation known to be the base for personnel working with nuclear weapons - either the design/fabrication, research, or in a line unit to be armed with nukes - we destroy such facilities, quickly and completely, along with a degree of punitive damages, designed to discourage such policies.

What are they gonna do? They wanted nukes because their conventional forces were inadequate to mess with us, so what are they gonna do if we destroy their facilities? Exactly nothing, because they can't. That's why they wanted the weapons to begin with.

That is precisely the kind of bullying talk that has made the USA the pariah of the civilised world and the bane of developing countries.


Consider this: If the US leaders have brains but don't use them, why would leaders of other countries who have nuclear weapons use them?




:eek:

That is precisely the kind of bullying talk that has made the USA the pariah of the civilised world and the bane of developing countries.


Consider this: If the US leaders have brains but don't use them, why would leaders of other countries who have nuclear weapons use them?

Q: Why do they need to keep your nation at bay?
A: Because you pose a threat to their existence!

Go figure


:eek:

[talaniman]

The squeaky wheel is the one that gets the grease, and North Korea is screaming for grease. China is afraid that if it get any worse a whole lot of refugees will invade from N.Korea, just like the Mexicans do in America. Desperate people will do desperate things.

[Morganite]

If China is as wealthy as they are saying she is--then their shouldn't be a problem in helping the poor nation of North Korea at its border-especially when they claim to be such good friends. This strikes me as an Asiatic form of capitalistic interminable hoarding of wealth by the fortunate few while those who have very little are considered as deserving it and unworthy of any significant help.

It also comes across as weird that the Chinese were more than willing to sacrifice thousands of Chinese lives to keep North Korea communist by fighting the United States but didn't follow up by making sure that once it was that way its population would not suffer the poverty now present or that its people would not come under the present tyranny.

The Chinese did not fight the United States in the Korean conflict. The US was a PART of a UNITED NATIONS force composed of many other nations besides the USA. Altogether sixteen nations, including US forces, formed the UN Force to repel invaders from North Korea and prevent them overwwhelming Southn Korea.

The US often speaks as if it was the only player at the table, which is not only inaccurate, but also unattractive.


M:)

Gary,
That reasoning could explain why the US is so hated.

The US is 'hated' because it is an imperialist bully. If you are an American, put yourself in the shoes of a nation that the US is threatening, and dictating to. A nation that boasts of being the land of the free ought to recognise the freedom of other nations to forge their own destinies.

America is not the worlds greatest democracy. It is one amongst many great democracies, but it seems to be the only one that dictates to other countries how they should govern themselves.

These are serious issues.



M:)

Wow.

Obviouslly you aren't familiar with sarcaism.

I have nothing against most Americans. A huge portion of my family are American and live there.

Just sometimes, certain people get on my nerves. I don't judge an entire country by the actions of a few.




You are right there.

I was once in Florida on vacation when I was asked, "Where do you come from". I replied Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Then, they seriously asked me if I lived in an igloo.

Sometimes ignorance is sad, and with some people, it does exist.

Most of the time I try to stay out of voicing my opinions on US domestic issues, not always, sometimes.

But seeing the education system and other things in the US, im glad to be living in Canada. (some US states scare me, others are not at all bad)

Some of my best friends are American, but I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one.

:)

[bhayne]

I ust saw a video from North Korea where everyone was happy and singing and saying how much they love the world.

It was either that or get shot on the spot. And that part of the video would be screened.

With over 1M troops with guns, I'd be thin and jolly too!

[bhayne]

Some of my best friends are American, but I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one.

:)

There are a lot worse out there. Next time she comes home with an Iranian national wearing a turbin (who longs to see his family back in Iran and quotes foreign words from the Karan every time he gets mad), you'll probably change your mind!

[Morganite]

There are alot worse out there. Next time she comes home with an Iranian national wearing a turbin (who longs to see his family back in Iran and quotes foreign words from the Karan everytime he gets mad), you'll probably change your mind!!

Iranians do not wear the turban. Muslims wear a skull cap, rather like the Jewish yamulkah. You are confusing them with Sikhs from Punjab in India!

That's what's wrong with America when it comes to other nations and cultures, hardly anyone knows diddley squat about them. Like the American who shot the Sikh garage proprietor in Phoenix after 9-11 because he thought he was an Arab. He wasn't a terrrorit, he wasn't an Arab, but he is still dead through abysmal ignorance and prejudice.

The Koran is written and read in Arabic, and there are no words in there that can hurt you any more than someone quoting words from the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament can hurt you whether the quoter is mad or not.

I'd rather my daughters marry decent Arabs than some of the wild men from the extreme conservative right wing militants who string up naked children and flog them, or who murder doctors and nurses and think they are doing God's will.


M:rolleyes:

[bhayne]

I don't believe what you say about the Koran. Doesn't the Koran introduce this Alla character?
I see videos of terrorist with English sub-titles, "Kill infidels, in the name of Alla" and they are holding a Koran. That's a strong message!

[tre_cani]

Iranians do not wear the turban. Muslims wear a skull cap, rather like the Jewish yamulkah. You are confusing them with Sikhs from Punjab in India!

That's whats wrong with America when it comes to other nations and cultures, hardly anyone knows diddley squat about them. Like the American who shot the Sikh garage proprietor in Phoenix after 9-11 because he thought he was an Arab. He wasn't a terrrorit, he wasn't an Arab, but he is still dead through abysmal ignorance and prejudice.

The Koran is writen and read in Arabic, and there are no words in there that can hurt you any more than someone quoting words from the Hebrew Old Testament or the Greek New Testament can hurt you whether the quoter is mad or not.

I'd rather my daughters marry decent Arabs than some of the wild men from the extreme conservative right wing militants who string up naked children and flog them, or who murder doctors and nurses and think they are doing God's will.


M:rolleyes:

You'd prefer your daughter marry a decent Arab rather than "some of the wild men from the extreme conservative right wing militants who string up naked children and flog them, or who murder doctors and nurses and think they are doing God's will."

It appears you're assuming that most Americans (specifically conservatives) are of the far extreme. The killer of the Sikh man is NOT a fair representation of our country's average citizen. Nor are the "right-wing militants who string up naked children and flog them" (Huh? where'd you get that?) or the radical pro-lifers (I assume that was the group to which you refer), just as Muslim extremists are not a good representation of the average Muslim person. That's why they're called extremists. Common sense tells a reasonable person that these people are not part of the majority.

You're no different than those you accuse of prejudice and profiling.

[Morganite]

It appears you're assuming that most Americans (specifically conservatives) are of the far extreme. The killer of the Sikh man is NOT a fair representation of our country's average citizen. Nor are the "right-wing militants who string up naked children and flog them" (Huh? where'd you get that?) or the radical pro-lifers (I assume that was the group to which you refer), just as Muslim extremists are not a good representation of the average Muslim person. That's why they're called extremists. Common sense tells a reasonable person that these people are not part of the majority.

You're no different than those you accuse of prejudice and profiling.

If you will read what I wrote more carefully, you will see that I did not apply any characteristics to all Americans, only to some. I made that plain enough so that a wayfaring man though a fool need not err therein. What I wrote is accurate. I did not characterise ALL Americans as extremists, as you charge. I am surprised that you are unaware of the baptists Child Abuses that made the headlines a couple or so years ago! Perhaps the following article will refresh your memory. It is taken from the site "religioustolerance":

Most conservative Christian sources which discuss the "rod" in Proverbs imply that it is a wooden stick of some sort which a parent should use to hit a misbehaving child, causing them pain, and thereby discipline them.


~ Dennis Rupert, pastor of New Life Community Church in Stafford, VA, writes:

"Proverbs 23:13-14..... show that the rod WAS for beating. The shepherd usually used a staff, not a rod, for rescuing, guiding, and creating a boundary for the sheep. The shepherd used the rod for beating (if not always sheep, then enemies of the sheep). Both are necessary in the life of sheep and both are necessary in our lives. Just like Psalm 23:4 says, 'your rod AND your staff, they comfort me'."

"There are people who see any physical affliction as brutality. I'm not of that camp and I think that is more the spirit of the age, than Biblical thinking. Even in the New Testament, God sees the discipline of parents as a worthy method which 'produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it' (Hebrews 12:7-11)."

~ GotQuestions.org answers a visitor's question:

" Question: "How should Christians discipline their children? What does the Bible say?" Their response is:

"The rod in the Bible is a reed-like stick. Proverbs 23:13-14 does in fact promote physical discipline. 'Don't fail to correct your children. They won't die if you spank them. Physical discipline may well save them from death' (NLT version). There are also other verses that support physical correction (Proverbs 13:24, 22:15, 20:30).

The Bible strongly stresses the importance of discipline; it is something we must all have to be productive people and is much easier learned when we are younger. Children who aren't disciplined grow up rebellious, have no respect for authority, and as a result obviously won't be readily willing to obey and follow God." 3

"Tim" at Grace & Truth Ministries writes:

"God COMMANDS us to spank with an implement in Proverbs 23:13-14... The promise from God is that if we do 'beat him with a rod' we will deliver his soul from hell. What a wonderful reward for obedience to the Lord in this area!. The Bible says use a 'rod', and God has His reasons for commanding that we use a rod. It is better to use a rod than one's hand because God says use a rod. You can run to psychology or to a wrong interpretation of the Scripture, but both paths are sadly a means of you yourself rebelling against God and His clear Words." 5

~ Charles Gleason writes:

"The most important consideration must be God's point of view, as revealed in the scriptures. The verses pertaining to the rod of correction are actually COMMANDS of God, to parents of unruly children... Even without the biblical endorsement, spanking has a very established background in the history and tradition of the family unit. Even many of our young adults of our day, can remember grandmother or grandfather using some form of 'the rod of correction' upon their buttocks. (even if their parents did not)... Schoolteachers, guardians, and even neighbors, thought nothing of paddling a rude or naughty child in times past. While this non-parental spanking policy may be subject to many different opinions in our day and time, it was a common sight in our recent past." 6

~ According to the StopTheRod.net web site, Clyde and Twyla Bullock once manufactured, advertised, and sold "The Rod," shown here, to whip children. According to the San Francisco Chronicle, the rod is a "22-inch, $5 white nylon whipping stick... Named after the biblical 'rod of correction,' the Rod provides 'a faith-based way to discipline children ... and train them as Christians,' [Twyla] Bullock explains."

The rod's designer, Clyde Bullocks is a Southern Baptist. This design appears to be his interpretation of the "rod" mentioned in the book of Proverbs. Their advertisement read: "Spoons are for cooking. Belts are for holding up pants. Hands are for loving. RODS are for chastening." It refers to the rod as "the means prescribed by God," citing Proverbs 23:13-14: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." 7,8,9


Jay and Jessica Wigley wrote:

"Proverbs is a book of poetry -- figurative language. Considering just that, I'd say that the rod mentioned in Proverbs is a figurative rod, not a literal one."

That is, when Proverbs 22:15 says "The rod and rebuke give wisdom..." it is referring to the "rod of correction," meaning non-violent methods of correction and teaching a child. As proof of her interpretation, she quotes Proverbs 23:13: "...if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die." Over 1,000 children die each year in the U.S. as a result of corporal punishment. If "beatest him with the rod" really means to beat a child with a rod, then the Bible would be lying. But the Bible is the Word of God and does not lie. Thus, the passage must be referring to a non physical correction with a figurative rod. 10

~ Joanrenae also comments God's promise in Proverbs 23:13. She notes that Exodus 21:20 discusses a situation in which a man must be punished if he beats his male or female slave that he owns to death with a rod.

... So many Christians have taken FIVE verses and hung a whole child rearing philosophy on them! Parents are told to use this as a primary form of punishment (what these experts refer to as discipline). Some use the words "punishment" and "discipline" interchangeably when they mean two entirely different things. These people are basing their theology on nothing more than the traditions of men!" 11

Some Christians interpret the Proverbs' passages as referring to a wooden stick used to beat a child. However, they reject the passages as representing very poor advice that dates from a violent period of biblical history.


~ Susan Lawrence of Arlington, MA, a homeschooling Lutheran mother, was distressed to see an advertisement for a child discipline tool called "The Rod" in a Christian homeschooling magazine.
<img src=http://www.religioustolerance.org/rod.jpg>

Interviewed on Beliefnet, she said:

"There are about five verses in Proverbs that do speak of beating your son with a rod, and also in Proverbs they speak of beating fools on the back, and that kind of thing. There’s a lot of punishment in the Old Testament. If you read the whole thing, there are floggings and stonings and all kinds of harsh punishments."

When asked about Proverbs 23:13's statement: "... if you beat him with a rod he will not die. Beat him with a rod and you will save him from the grave," Lawrence said:

"It’s a lie, because children who are beaten with a rod sometimes do die. Between one and two thousand children die every year in this country from corporal punishment. One hundred forty-two thousand are seriously injured from corporal punishment every year in America, according to the Dept. of Health and Human Services and the New England Journal of Medicine. So it can’t be taken literally." 11


See the Boston Globe article:

http://www.boston.com/news/local/art...ng_tools_sale/

[Morganite]

Nor are the "right-wing militants who string up naked children and flog them" (Huh? where'd you get that?)

www.corpun.com : Archive : 2001 : US Domestic Mar 2001

Atlanta Journal-Constitution, GA, 18 March 2001

Church faces abuse probe over whipping of children
By Alan Judd
Atlanta Journal-Constitution Staff Writer

Authorities are investigating a massive case of alleged abuse by parents of as many as 60 children from the same northwest Atlanta church. Already, state social workers have removed 19 children from the homes of three members of the House of Prayer, 1194 Hollywood Road. Another church member said Friday evening that social workers had indicated they soon would take 11 of his children. Atlanta police and social workers are looking into reports that church members systematically held down their children while beating them with belts and other objects - allegedly under the direction of the pastor, the Rev. Arthur Allen.

A 7-year-old boy told detectives that his uncle whipped him with a "big switch" at the church while three other men held him down, according to a police report. The beating left him with bruises on his abdomen and back, the boy said.

A 10-year-old boy told police that an adult beat him on his back at the church as another adult held his arms and two men held his legs. The boy said that Allen, the pastor, was "watching and telling them when to stop," according to the police report.

Allen said children from the congregation have been beaten at church, at school and in their homes. He said he tells parents to restrain their children "so that they would not hit the child in any vital spots to hurt the child." Church members said the punishment is appropriate. "We don't overly abuse our children," said Tabitha Houston, 18, who was married two years ago with what she described as Allen's "approval."

Atlanta Journal-Constitution, GA, 21 March 2001

Pastor, 5 followers arrested in child beatings
By Joshua B. Good and Ron Martz

Atlanta police on Tuesday arrested a pastor and five members of his church while social workers took custody of 22 more children, alleging they ran the risk of being abused.

The pastor and four members of the House of Prayer were charged with cruelty to children for the beating of two boys, ages 7 and 10. Another church member was charged with battery and reckless conduct.

The older boy had open wounds on his stomach and right side, said Atlanta police Lt. Elizabeth Propes, commander of the youth crimes unit. The younger boy had welts on his stomach and back. The boys told police they were held down at church and beaten with sticks, switches and a belt.

Atlanta Journal-Constitution, GA, 22 March 2001
Minister has prior conviction for beating
He's released from jail in latest case

The Rev. Arthur Allen Jr., was sent to jail in 1993 after ordering members of his church to beat a 16-year-old girl with belts and then taunting the bleeding girl when she cried. Now, the pastor of the House of Prayer church in northwest Atlanta is at the center of a massive abuse investigation that has led to the removal of 41 children from their parents' homes.

"He stood over me and said, 'I had you whining like a baby,' " the girl, Ivory Johnson, testified during a 1993 trial in DeKalb County State Court.

Allen admitted in court that he ordered the August 1992 beating - which he said may have lasted from 20 to 30 minutes. The beating continued, he testified, until the girl was "beaten into submission." The teenager had defied his authority, Allen said, and she "had to be beaten, or she would take over the church."


Children being punished were suspended in the air by their hands and arms and beaten with switches, sticks or belts, Dean said. Photographs shown to the parents in court showed welts that Dean said were between 1 and 3 inches long, including one she described as the shape of a belt buckle.

"I've really been painted a monster," Allen says. Allen hasn't found universal validation for his views, not only on disciplining children but also on other church matters, including his approving marriages for girls as young as 14. He has received little sympathy from state social services officials, who blame him for ordering systematic beatings with switches and belts that, in some cases, left welts and abrasions. And he has gotten little support from other ministers, even some who think the government may have overreacted in its mass seizing of so many church members' children.

Atlanta Journal-Constitution, GA, 23 March 2001
'They'd beat them for every simple little thing they'd do'
Michael Pearson
Atlanta Journal-Constitution Staff Writer

"I get nervous just talking about it," says 19-year-old Jason Bates, who says he and his sisters were beaten mercilessly until their mother took them out of the House of Prayer. Jason Bates doesn't go to church anymore. The church of his childhood was a place for fear, not a house of prayer. It was a place to be plucked from sleep for a whipping, for watching helplessly as his sisters' dresses were lifted to reveal their young bodies for a beating.

"They'd sometimes have kids back there lined up" for whippings, Bates said. "They'd beat them for every simple little thing they'd do."

His sister Joanna Bates said she was beaten when she was 12 after Allen accused her of being a prostitute. She protested being exposed to the congregation after the preacher lifted up her dress to spank her. " 'You're used to men seeing you,' " she quoted Allen as telling her. Linda Bates took several of her children out of the church after Allen prohibited her from visiting Jason in the hospital after he suffered severe injuries in a fire.

"It was like a cult. He controlled everything," she said of Allen.

Follow-up: 1 April 2001: Discipline or abuse? Church renews spanking debate

Atlanta Journal-Constitution, GA, 26 March 2001
Reader responses
Corporal punishment
Kids get bad message

In response to Frederick Zak's defense of corporal punishment ("Corporal punishment part of black American culture" Viewpoints, March 23): I disagree completely with his presumption that a little physical punishment produces a better citizen. Physical punishment simply sends the message that violence is an acceptable response to a situation. Nonviolent responses, such as restricting privileges, are a much better societal example. Second, violent punishment enforces behavior by associating bad actions with fear of further violence. Once you remove the fear (as an adult) there is no barrier to the behavior. Contrast this with the instilling of values: A bad behavior is avoided because it is bad, not because you might be hurt if caught doing it.

www.corpun.com Main menu page

© Colin Farrell
Page created: June 2001

[Starman]

The Chinese did not fight the United States in the Korean conflict. The US was a PART of a UNITED NATIONS force composed of many other nations besides the USA. Altogether sixteen nations, including US forces, formed the UN Force to repel invaders from North Korea and prevent them overwwhelming Southn Korea.

The US often speaks as if it was the only player at the table, which is not only inaccurate, but also unattractive.


M:)

Very true and I agree with you 100%. Here is a list of participating nations.

Note: All figures may vary according to source. This measures peak strength as sizes changed during the war.

South Korea 590,911
USA 480,000- including-- Puerto Rican 65th regiment
Britain 63,000 [1]
Canada 26,791[2]
The Philippines 7,000
Turkey 5,455[3]
The Netherlands 3,972
Australia 17,000
France 3,421[4]
New Zealand 1,389
Thailand 1,294
Ethiopia 1,271
Greece 1,263
Colombia 1,068
Belgium 900
South Africa 826
Luxembourg 44


Total: 941,356–1,139,518

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The._65...antry_Regiment

[tre_cani]

If you will read what I wrote more carefully, you will see that I did not apply any characteristics to all Americans, only to some.
I did not characterise ALL Americans as extremists, as you charge.

You want to argue general semantics?
Let's see... you said:

That's whats wrong with America when it comes to other nations and cultures, hardly anyone knows diddley squat about them. Like the American who shot the Sikh garage proprietor in Phoenix after 9-11 because he thought he was an Arab. He wasn't a terrrorit, he wasn't an Arab, but he is still dead through abysmal ignorance and prejudice.

How is my thinking flawed when you write, "That's what's wrong with America..." and "Like the American..."?
Perhaps it is simply my perception that you imply, ALL Americans?

I made that plain enough so that a wayfaring man though a fool need not err therein.

Ouch. A fool, eh? Well, you're certainly entitled to that perception of my intellect.

[bhayne]

Most conservative Christian sources which discuss the "rod" in Proverbs imply that it is a wooden stick of some sort which a parent should use to hit a misbehaving child, causing them pain, and thereby discipline them.

Yeah, a good scare tactic when you saw the result of your friends getting the punishment (no, I didn't inspect my friends butt. I am referring to the crying). I remember the fear and anticipation before the event. I received it only once for playing ball in the living room and breaking a vase; it scared me straight! But an hour later, it was like nothing happened and all was forgiven. As kids, whenever we were doing something we shouldn't (a dare), the 'yard stick' always came up and we'd stop. Quite a powerful tool when you can remember an hour long event 40 years ago!

Now that I have children growing up, I wish they'd bring it back!

The 'yard stick' as we called it was not a weapon- but in the wrong hands could be used as one. There is a right way and a wrong way. Your exert is the 'wrong way'!

[LUNAGODDESS]

The next time that I have to read or hear about an minority that was dismissed from a job because of their color... I will be sure to them that it is all in their heads... the next time a majority or a new arrival walks the american streets and feel it is their business to express an negative opinion about minority american... I'll be sure to tell them it is OK to treat some one with total hostility because of the color of their skin is not to your liking and because of that fact... therefore should suffer poverty and injustice... and the misrepresentation being broadcast by the media about such groups in America... since I walk the walk and talk the talk... I understand that racism is one of weakness in the foundation of this american society... How do you correct this problem... those that are responsible for this weakness... need to clean it up... donot to cover the eyes of those who are watching to see who is at fault... diversity training is needed for all of us... we should never hide because of the issues of weakness... just because it is to deep to handle mentally... those who wish to cover it up... remember all righteous things will come to light and all things done in the dark will soon show through when the light shines on it... bias is backed by the oppressor... this play ground needs to be repaired... never cover your eyes... look at the damage... is it not nasty... yes then clean it up... we as a nation are not sinless... I have no plans in being blood guilty about anything... I know the fight will cause a life... I have family that sacrifice a lot for the sake of human rights... the battle continues... never back down when you know you are right... yell it out loud... make sure of all things... I am not bonded to servitude... I will not close my eyes to the damage done to mother earth and the faith... and this is the reality of life in the real America... If you do not like it then ask those that are challenged by it on how to fix it... it hurts... yes... this nation brought forth some nice events in human history... but it is not perfect... that is why the words striving for perfection in used by Thomas Jefferson... we all want heaven on earth... need to address the problems of poverty, crime, education, morally... here... then guess what the world will notice and world will ask themselves can we do this at home... the answer is there a willingness to get rid of ignorance... if yes... now take this story and use the nations Iran an Iraq the same problem exist there... problems with their minority population... racism and nationalism... human right violations seems like a strong similarity... and with North Korea their issues are poverty... you are not eating... no one cares... nuke the world because no one cares... racism and nationalism... effective because someone or a people decided to close their eyes and say it is a lie...