[Gods Child]

Who rose Jesus - that is, who was the engineer of his resurrection - is of less importance than the question of whether Jesus literally rose from the dead and whether others will also rise from the dead to everlasting life.

Who does what in these matter seems to be of much less significance than whether or not these events have taken and will take place for all mankind at a future time.

Your thoughts on the Trinity or NOT the Trinity are interesting but, and please forgive me for saying this, they appear a little confused and confusing. Although I am not a believer in the Trinity of the creeds, I find your arguments against the credal Trinity less than convincing. Principally because it appears that you interpret your prooftexts in peculiar ways.

M:)RGANITE

Sir, Im sorry that I might have confused you, I pray that you forgive me but what is more confusing, Oneness or The Trinity? I am apostolic and my objective is to restore the truth, and I know you will agree with me that the word of God has been distorted and changed from truth. I search the scriptures and research history, I'm just tired of people going by creeds written by people who followed some philosophy and makes God seem like a mystery, the bible never teaches that God is a mystery, what the bible does teach is the mystery of God is a mystery.

I talk to many trinitarians out of love to try to get them to understand, some do and some seem confused, some are torn between the two. They say the Trinity is a concept hard to comprehend but you must believe in faith that God is a Trinity, Ever time there is contradictions that I point out and there are many, trinitarians either make an excuse or they never answer my question. I have more questions to ask that I haven't asked yet. People says that the bible doesn't say the word "Trinity" but its taught in the bible, its funny because if God is three then the devil must be three as well because its also talked about it in scripture, the devil is the FATHER of lies, the antichrist is the SON of perdition (2 Thes 2: 3), and the antichrist also has a SPIRIT, its taugh so why do trinitarian say theirs a trinity of God and not a trinity of the devil, isn't it also taught. Yes, Thus making the Devilhead if the trinity of God is real.

I don't believe God is three. 1 John 5: 7-8 was added to the bible known as The Johannine Comma and is proven that it should not be used to try to prove the trinity. Genesis 1: 26 has also be proven by TRINITARIANS that they shouldn't us it to try to prove the trinity. I am so happy that you don't believe in the trinity creeds. Its just that the Trinity belief is a bit too weary and is wavering on rocky foundation. I pray that many will come to the truth and not fall to philosophy and vain deceit. Along with the holy ghost comes understanding. Just like I told the others, there is much to tell concerning the trinity. If the Trinity was truth, then I would want to believe it but I found that its far from it by prayer and study. This world needs a revival. Sir, if you have any questions to ask me please feel free, I would love that. God bless

[Morganite]

Sir, Im sorry that i might have confused you, i pray that you forgive me but what is more confusing, Oneness or The Trinity? I am apostolic and my objective is to restore the truth, and i know you will agree with me that the word of God has been distorted and changed from truth. I search the scriptures and research history, im just tired of people going by creeds written by people who followed some philosophy and makes God seem like a mystery, the bible never teaches that God is a mystery, what the bible does teach is the mystery of God is a mystery.

I talk to many trinitarians out of love to try to get them to understand, some do and some seem confused, some are torn between the two. they say the Trinity is a concept hard to comprehend but you must believe in faith that God is a Trinity, Ever time their is contradictions that i point out and their are many, trinitarians either make an excuse or they never answer my question. I have more questions to ask that i haven't asked yet. People says that the bible doesn't say the word "Trinity" but its taught in the bible, its funny becasue if God is three then the devil must be three aswell because its also talked about it in scripture, the devil is the FATHER of lies, the antichrist is the SON of perdition (2 Thes 2: 3), and the antichrist also has a SPIRIT, its taugh so why do trinitarian say theirs a trinity of God and not a trinity of the devil, isn't it also taught. Yes, Thus making the Devilhead if the trinity of God is real.

I dont believe God is three. 1 John 5: 7-8 was added to the bible known as The Johannine Comma and is proven that it should not be used to try to prove the trinity. Genesis 1: 26 has also be proven by TRINITARIANS that they shouldn't us it to try to prove the trinity. I am so happy that you don't believe in the trinity creeds. Its just that the Trinity belief is a bit too weary and is wavering on rocky foundation. I pray that many will come to the truth and not fall to philosophy and vain deceit. Along with the holy ghost comes understanding. Just like i told the others, their is much to tell concerning the trinity. If the Trinity was truth, then i would want to believe it but i found that its far from it by prayer and study. This world needs a revival. Sir, if you have any questions to ask me please feel free, i would love that. God bless

Trinitarians will agree that the Trinity is also a Oneness. That is, to my mind, a contradiction of whaty the Bible records. I may be simple minded but I believe that simplicity is usually (not always) the key to understanding the scriptures because they were written for simple folks.

Jesus speaks to God as if God was not only a separate person but also as if he enjoys a separate will. The Spirit, says Jesus is sent to comfor the Christians when he, Jesus, has gone to sit on the right hand of God and cannot be longer with them. That makes a count of three persons who are neither the same One (Unitarian) nor One in Three (Trinitarian).

Perhaps one of the most illustrative texts is Acts 7.55-56, where all three persons of the Godhead are discrete and accounted for as separate persons in separate places. 1,2, and 3. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this pasasage.

M:)

[Morganite]

Morganite,
Yes, I can see it is one's choice to believe in the Trinity or not. But if some wanted to claim otherwise, why do they so with established doctrine? Did you read all of my link? I never heard of this Unitarian belief from a Christian. What about the authority Jesus has when you are JUDGED? What about John 5: 19-30?

All these other beliefs do is divide us on doctrine. I know the basic elements for being a Christian, like you said. I just hate to see something like "unitarian" mentioned at all!

Just as there came to be so many denominations of Christianity- God never gave approval to dividing his church. The church is supposed to be one body(Eph.4:3-6) with Christ as its Head (Coloss.1:18)

If you just stick to answering your original question from Scripture- the answer is no. But to go on and say that Jesus was not God in the flesh- oh, I could just pinch someone. La, who do you think is inside you? HINT: the same Spirit!
I don't like the watered-down version of the PEACE & POWER. Amen.

I was not defending any particular position, merely expressing the fact that there are some Christians who are not Trinitarians. As it happens I am neither Unitarian nor Trinitarian.

The Bible records that Jesus is God the Son and that he is the Son of God the Father. But he is not to be confused as being the same person or having the same will as God the Father or God the Holy Ghost, as the Bible makes plain. That is my personal position.

I do believe that Jesus is God in the flesh - that is what incarnate means, but he is the Son of God, not God the Father come in the flesh according to the Bible. I will not write on this at length but merely share a couple of Bible passages to illustrate my position.

In Revelation 1.5-6, John writes Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. This is clearly a reference to Jesus AND to His Father as a separate entity.

1 Peter 3:21-22: Jesus Christ [..] is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Paul, in his epistle to the Corinthian saints, says this: As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Paul knew as well as any man could know it that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost constitute one Godhead of three personages. In the following verses he adds this: For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Here Paul speaks of both the Father and Son as God. Near the close of his epistle to the Roman saints, he said: And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. The "God of peace," who according to the scriptures is to bruise Satan, is Jesus Christ.

It is surprising that Christians can be confused and believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one substance or entity, in the face of the constant repetition in the New Testament of the evidence which in the plainest possible terms proclaims them separate and distinct [discrete] from each other.

The frequent declarations of the Savior that he and his Father are distinct from each other, but one in thought and action, is so plain that even the most simple soul should understand it. Our Redeemer was constantly addressing his Father in prayer. He taught his disciples to pray to the Father, not to him, and the most touching and tender appeal that was ever recorded is his prayer to his Father in the seventeenth chapter of John.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent….
And now Father, glorify thou me with thine own self, with the glory which I had with thee before the world was….
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are….

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are.

Thus from the lips of the Saviour it is plain that the Father and Son are separate Personages, yet one in power, wisdom and unity. Hence they are, with the Holy Spirit which carries out their will one Godhead, but three distinct persons. Jesus was not aksing the Father t make all his disciples into one massive individual person. That would be outrageous. Being one as Jesus and God the Father are one is being one in unity of purpose, etc.

This is some of the foundation for my belief , and, yes, it contradicts what you might call accepted Christian doctrine, but hoary old age is not a guarantee of truth. As an illustration, men have thought the world to be flat for much longer than they have known it to be oblate. Antiquity did not change their wrong belief into truth, and no more does it change anything that is not so into something that is so.

I am ready to be judged by God and his Son for accepting the word of the scripture as grounds for my beliefs. I do not fear the fires of hell, although I don't care to turn myback on those who are too ready to stand in the place of God and declare that believing in such and such that runs counter to ancient wisdom will transport them straight to Hell without any part in the love and mercy of a just and loving God who is our Father. That kind of homiletic pronouncement is antiscriptural codswallop and offensive to God.


M:)


,

[Gods Child]

Trinitarians will agree that the Trinity is also a Oneness. That is, to my mind, a contradiction of whaty the Bible records. I may be simple minded but I believe that simplicity is usually (not always) the key to understanding the scriptures because they were written for simple folks.

Jesus speaks to God as if God was not only a separate person but also as if he enjoys a separate will. The Spirit, says Jesus is sent to comfor the Christians when he, Jesus, has gone to sit on the right hand of God and cannot be longer with them. That makes a count of three persons who are neither the same One (Unitarian) nor One in Three (Trinitarian).

Perhaps one of the most illustrative texts is Acts 7.55-56, where all three persons of the Godhead are discrete and accounted for as separate persons in separate places. 1,2, and 3. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this pasasage.

M:)

Sir, here are some ways that trinitarians look at their belief, They see God as being three separate persons that are not the same as the other but they are all God, the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Ghost and the son is not the Holy Ghost. How Trinitarians got this concept is by misinterpretation of the bible. In John 1:1,14 ~ John tells the reader that "In the beginning was God and the WORD WAS WITH GOD and the WORD WAS GOD. Trinitarians misuse the LOGOS (word) in this situation. Logos means "Thought, Words spoken, the idea God had, His word was God because the words came from God, does this mean that the word is a Second person of the Godhead? NO,

In John Jesus says "before Abraham "I Am". They take this scripture as to say That Jesus is God the Son. In many scripture Jesus says "the Father is in me" he never said that the Father is in unity with me. Jesus never spoke himself (John 14: 9-12), who spoke through Jesus, God the Son? No, it was The Father. If God the son was all powerful and equal to the Father, then why didnt God the Son speak through Jesus? How come God the son had to listen to the Father? Something doesn't seem right. Jesus is the "I Am" because Jesus was not speaking but the Father in Jesus was speaking, The Father was saying, i am the great "I Am", Jesus never made himself out to be God or the Father because In (Philippians 2: 7-8) it says God made himself of NO REPUTATION, he HUMBLED himself, and was unto like a SERVANT. Servant of who? God.

The question is why was Jesus called the SON? Jesus was known as the son not because the bible refers to him as being God the son who came down in heaven but he is the son because he was born of woman and concieved of the Holy Ghost making him to be a SON, notice that Jesus was concieved by the Holy Ghost. If the Holy Ghost was the third person of the Godhead then Jesus would have two Fathers, Trinitarians have a hard time answering this questions as well but oneness doesn't , we simply say "as you can see, the Father and Holy ghost are the same person, the holy Ghost is God in action and the Father is the only God according to (1 Cor 8: 6) etc. Malicah said "dont we all have but one Father, Jesus was refered to as the Father in Isaiah 9: 6, regardless if people say it meant Father of eternity, Jesus was still the Father but we only have one Father, If the trinity was true, then we would have two Fathers. Trinitarians make an excuse for this scripture. in John 8: 19,24,27 Jesus tryed to tell the people that he was the Father but they still didn't get it. Jesus spoke in proverbs alot and it threw alot of people off but then Jesus said in John 16: 25 ~ their would be a time when i will no longer speak in proverbs but will reveal to you the Father Plainly.

Jesus told the apostles he was the Father in John 14: 9, Jesus also claimed to be the holy ghost in John 14: 17-26, Jesus said i will come to you yet in a little while, he also said the world doesn't see the spirit of truth but you do because he dwells with you, yet the spirit was leaving because Jesus physical body was leaving, they were in comfort when Jesus was there and the spirit was also their. The holy Ghost came in Jesus name, Notice that people in todays world ask Jesus to come into their hearts. Are their two spirits? No, Jesus is the comforter. The comforter could not come until Jesus left, why? wasn't it possible? Jesus physical was leaving but yet he was comming back as the spirit to dwell with the apostles (John 14: 18).

The only distinction that the bible makes and oneness believe is Body and Spirit, Jesus physical body was not a spirit and the Father was not a physical body. The Father dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in the Father. Jesus was the bright expression of his Father and was the express image of the FATHERS PERSON (not God the Son) In the greetings of the new testament, Paul never gave attention to the Holy Spirit but only to God and Jesus. If the holy spirit was another seperate person, then Paul should have given him attention as well but the spirit is the Father in action. Jesus the MAN is our mediator between us and God, he is the only way we can't get to God, its not another person in the Godhead who died on the cross, it was the body that the Father put on who died. the body is the Son not a second person of the Godhead.

Whos sits on the throne of God. you said "Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God". This is true but not in the way some trinitarians thank, when John had a vision, he saw ONE throne not two, The right hand of God symbolizes power. In many cases did the bible refer to the right hand of God as power. In Matthew 28: 18 ~ ...all power is given Jesus in heaven. Thus Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God. Matthew 19: 28 ~ ...the son of man shall sit in the throne of glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 25: 31 ~...the son of man...then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. Rev 20: 11 ~ And is saw a great white throne and him that sat upon it. Are these scriptures indicating that there are two thrones in heaven? Or One? Are they saying that there are two people sitting on one throne? NO. Sir I hope that I helped you some but I am not finished yet (far from it) lol. I pray that my writing was understandable and not misspelled or anything. God bless.

[Gods Child]

I was not defending any particular position, merely expressing the fact that there are some Christians who are not Trinitarians. As it happens I am neither Unitarian nor Trinitarian.

The Bible records that Jesus is God the Son and that he is the Son of God the Father. But he is not to be confused as being the same person or having the same will as God the Father or God the Holy Ghost, as the Bible makes plain. That is my personal position.

I do believe that Jesus is God in the flesh - that is what incarnate means, but he is the Son of God, not God the Father come in the flesh according to the Bible. I will not write on this at length but merely share a couple of Bible passages to illustrate my position.

In Revelation 1.5-6, John writes Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. This is clearly a reference to Jesus AND to His Father as a seperate entity.

1 Peter 3:21-22: Jesus Christ [..] is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Paul, in his epistle to the Corinthian saints, says this: As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Paul knew as well as any man could know it that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost constitute one Godhead of three personages. In the following verses he adds this: For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Here Paul speaks of both the Father and Son as God. Near the close of his epistle to the Roman saints, he said: And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. The "God of peace," who according to the scriptures is to bruise Satan, is Jesus Christ.

It is surprising that Christians can be confused and believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one substance or entity, in the face of the constant repetition in the New Testament of the evidence which in the plainest possible terms proclaims them separate and distinct [discrete] from each other.

The frequent declarations of the Savior that he and his Father are distinct from each other, but one in thought and action, is so plain that even the most simple soul should understand it. Our Redeemer was constantly addressing his Father in prayer. He taught his disciples to pray to the Father, not to him, and the most touching and tender appeal that was ever recorded is his prayer to his Father in the seventeenth chapter of John.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent….
And now Father, glorify thou me with thine own self, with the glory which I had with thee before the world was….
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are….

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are.

Thus from the lips of the Saviour it is plain that the Father and Son are separate Personages, yet one in power, wisdom and unity. Hence they are, with the Holy Spirit which carries out their will one Godhead, but three distinct persons. Jesus was not aksing the Father t make all his disciples into one massive individual person. That would be outrageous. Being one as Jesus and God the Father are one is being one in unity of purpose, etc.

This is some of the foundation for my belief , and, yes, it contradicts what you might call accepted Christian doctrine, but hoary old age is not a guarantee of truth. As an illustration, men have thought the world to be flat for much longer than they have known it to be oblate. Antiquity did not change their wrong belief into truth, and no more does it change anything that is not so into something that is so.

I am ready to be judged by God and his Son for accepting the word of the scripture as grounds for my beliefs. I do not fear the fires of hell, although I don't care to turn myback on those who are too ready to stand in the place of God and declare that believing in such and such that runs counter to ancient wisdom will transport them straight to Hell without any part in the love and mercy of a just and loving God who is our Father. That kind of homiletic pronouncement is antiscriptural codswallop and offensive to God.


M:)


,

PLEASE VISIT THIS SITE: 226 Questions - Table of Contents

Im not finished yet. LOL

[ordinaryguy]

That kind of homiletic pronouncement is antiscriptural codswallop and offensive to God.

The word "codswallop" was new to me, so I looked it up:

Cods·wal·lop (kŏdz'wŏl'əp)
n. Chiefly British Slang
Nonsense; rubbish.

Said to be from 19c. (but first attested 1963), perhaps from wallop, British slang for "beer," and cod in one of its various senses, perhaps "testicles."

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

ROFLMAO!

[Retrotia]

I don't see the need for analyzing the Trinity. What difference does it make in your Christian walk anyway? I have no concern if one is a "unitarian" or vegetarian. Belief in ONE God is what counts. When you pray, do you just say,"God help me with this or that, Amen- or do you say, God (or Lord) help me with that, in Jesus' name--Amen. If you just pray to God & not pray to God through Jesus, then I believe your prayers won't be heard. And if you don't acknowledge the deity of the Holy Spirit, then you may miss the experiences & gifts (or manifestations) of God's Spirit. And according to my notes- from a terrific anointed Pastor, I need to believe in the deity of all 3 persons of the Trinity. Without that belief, the messages in the prophetic cannot be discerned. And much more, which is lengthy & probably personal.
I agree about God's will. BC it all is determined by the Father first (exept whatever power He has allowed Satan to have)
I read your link on the" one" thing & none of it rang true for me. I think it took the scholars & priests a while to analyze what the writings were saying. But I'm glad they came up with the Nicene creed. Holy Trinity Scriptures
That's for Godschild especially.

[Gods Child]

I don't see the need for analyzing the Trinity. What difference does it make in your Christian walk anyway? I have no concern if one is a "unitarian" or vegetarian. Belief in ONE God is what counts. When you pray, do you just say,"God help me with this or that, Amen- or do you say, God (or Lord) help me with that, in Jesus' name--Amen. If you just pray to God & not pray to God through Jesus, then I believe your prayers won't be heard. And if you don't acknowledge the deity of the Holy Spirit, then you may miss the experiences & gifts (or manifestations) of God's Spirit. And according to my notes- from a terrific anointed Pastor, I need to believe in the deity of all 3 persons of the Trinity. Without that belief, the messages in the prophetic cannot be discerned. And much more, which is lengthy & probably personal.
I agree about God's will. BC it all is determined by the Father first (exept whatever power He has allowed Satan to have)
I read your link on the" one" thing & none of it rang true for me. I think it took the scholars & priests a while to analyze what the writings were saying. But I'm glad they came up with the Nicene creed. Holy Trinity Scriptures
That's for Godschild especially.

Honestly, There is a reason of analysis of the Trinity. Yes we can all agree that Jesus is God we can all agree that God is One. You seem to misunderstand that Oneness does not deny the deity of anyone. If the Holy Ghere is one of the scriptures that host proceeded from the Father then the holy Ghost is the spirit of the Father, the holy ghost is the Father in action, He is God, Jesus is God but they are all the same person not three separate persons. If you really study history and the bible, you will see that its impossible for God to be 3 separate but One God. I have a question for you. Who is sitting on the white throne in heaven?

Here are some scriptures that conveys that it is important to know if Jesus is the Father or not.

John 8: 19-27 ~ Where is they Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me nor my Father: if ye had known me, YE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN MY FATHER ALSO. 21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. 22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye ye cannot come. 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: Ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in you sins: FOR IF YE BELIEVE NOT THAT I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins. 25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that i said unto you from the beginning. 27 THEY UNDERSTOOD NOT THAT HE SPAKE TO THEM OF THE FATHER. PLEASE CHECK OUT THIS SITE: I AM Who?


Jesus was speaking in proverbs and the men didn't understand what Jesus was saying, he wasn't saying he was just God but he was saying he was the Father. Trinitarians don't understand that there is only one God who is the Father (1 Cor 8: 6) Just one, not three that make up one. The subject was about "Where is Jesus Father". Some words in the bible were added for sentence structure and they are in italics, If you take out the "HE" in "I AM HE, then you will get just "I AM". Jesus is the I am of the OT becasue he is not speaking but the Father in him is speaking. Does Jesus have God the son and God the Father in him? No, the bible never mentions anything like that, it only says God the Father is in him. Why does God the Son need the Father if he is equal to him and almighty. The Father in Jesus makes Jesus God, Jesus is the body, the Father is the spirit. The site that you gave me was not a good indicator of the trinity. Trinitarians scholars admit that you should not use Genesis 1: 26 to prove the Trinity, nor 1 John 5: 7-8 because that verse was added to the manuscripts as a note. The Trinity belief is on a rocky foundation. you said "you are happy about the creeds" but you fail to see that they are contradiction to the bible.

John 14: 8-9 ~ Philip saith unto the, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth (will satisfy) us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how sayest thou, shew us the Father? Jesus asked this question because Philip whould have know when he see's Jesus, he know the Father also. You cannot know Jesus without knowing the Father nor know the Father without knowing Jesus. Jesus is the bright expression of his Fathers person.

John 16: 25 ~ ...the time cometh, when i shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly the Father.

[ordinaryguy]

When you pray, do you just say,"God help me with this or that, Amen- or do you say, God (or Lord) help me with that, in Jesus' name--Amen. If you just pray to God & not pray to God through Jesus, then I believe your prayers won't be heard.

So does the Lord's Prayer need to be amended to add "in Jesus' name" before God will hear it? Surely if Jesus himself didn't include it in his specific instruction to his disciples about how to pray, it must not be that crucial. It never ceases to amaze me when someone presumes to know what God will or won't do for someone else.

[Gods Child]

So does the Lord's Prayer need to be amended to add "in Jesus' name" before God will hear it? Surely if Jesus himself didn't include it in his specific instruction to his disciples about how to pray, it must not be that crucial. It never ceases to amaze me when someone presumes to know what God will or won't do for someone else.

I agree, I pray in the name of Jesus, Jesus THE MAN is the mediator between men and God so we pray in Jesus name, there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.

[Morganite]

PLEASE VISIT THIS SITE: 226 Questions - Table of Contents

Im not finished yet. LOL

I regret that I will not be reading the 226 questions. I shall read all your answers etc here with interest, but will not go elsewhere to find out what you mean. If it has two or three questions then I might visit another site, but 226 will take too much time that I need to spend in other pursuits.

M:)

[Morganite]

So does the Lord's Prayer need to be amended to add "in Jesus' name" before God will hear it? Surely if Jesus himself didn't include it in his specific instruction to his disciples about how to pray, it must not be that crucial. It never ceases to amaze me when someone presumes to know what God will or won't do for someone else.

You could consider this:

whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].
¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Does that sound all right?

[Morganite]

I don't see the need for analyzing the Trinity. What difference does it make in your Christian walk anyway? I have no concern if one is a "unitarian" or vegetarian. Belief in ONE God is what counts. When you pray, do you just say,"God help me with this or that, Amen- or do you say, God (or Lord) help me with that, in Jesus' name--Amen. If you just pray to God & not pray to God through Jesus, then I believe your prayers won't be heard. And if you don't acknowledge the deity of the Holy Spirit, then you may miss the experiences & gifts (or manifestations) of God's Spirit. And according to my notes- from a terrific anointed Pastor, I need to believe in the deity of all 3 persons of the Trinity. Without that belief, the messages in the prophetic cannot be discerned. And much more, which is lengthy & probably personal.
I agree about God's will. BC it all is determined by the Father first (exept whatever power He has allowed Satan to have)
I read your link on the" one" thing & none of it rang true for me. I think it took the scholars & priests a while to analyze what the writings were saying. But I'm glad they came up with the Nicene creed. Holy Trinity Scriptures
That's for Godschild especially.

Dei Trinitas:

The current version of the Nicene Creed is called the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed and was probably adopted by the Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D. The following is a literal translation of this version, the parenthesis indicating words altered or added according to modern Roman Catholic liturgical use:

"We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spake by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic and apostolic Church. We confess (I Confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."
(Source: Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. 11, pp. 49-50.)

Of the major creeds, the Athanasian is by far the most incomprehensible and difficult to understand. It has been said "It would be difficult to conceive of a greater number of inconsistencies and contradictions expressed in words as few."

Yet it is the one creed which its defending apologists feel called upon to praise for its clarity, lucidity, and plainness. The official statement describes it as "a short, clear exposition of the doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation, with a passing reference to several other dogmas." It is promoted as a "summary of Catholic Faith," and as a document that "is approved by the Church as expressing its mind on the fundamental truths with which it deals."

They eulogize "the compactness and lucidity of its statements," which "make it highly prized," and say that it "states in a very plain and precise way what the Catholic Faith is concerning the important doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation."

This is the official Catholic version of the creed:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensible but One Uncreated, and One Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

"So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

"So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

"Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

"God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."
(Source: Catholic Encyclopedia, vol. 2, pp. 33-34.)

Clear, concise, succinct, understandable?

Judge for yourself.

If you believe in it, then I wish you well and no animosity, but where is this found in the Holy Bible? Fair question?

M:)RGANITE

[Gods Child]

I regret that I will not be reading the 226 questions. I shall read all your answers etc here with interest, but will not go elsewhere to find out what you mean. If it has two or three questions then I might visit another site, but 226 will take too much time that I need to spend in other pursuits.

M:)

Morganite, did you see my writing before this post of the 226 questions? I guess its OK if you won't read all the 226 questios but you don't have to, you can just skim the questions and then click on the question that you are interested in, if you really want to know something, you will study it with all your heart.

[Gods Child]

I regret that I will not be reading the 226 questions. I shall read all your answers etc here with interest, but will not go elsewhere to find out what you mean. If it has two or three questions then I might visit another site, but 226 will take too much time that I need to spend in other pursuits.

M:)

Sir, here are some ways that trinitarians look at their belief, They see God as being three separate persons that are not the same as the other but they are all God, the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Ghost and the son is not the Holy Ghost. How Trinitarians got this concept is by misinterpretation of the bible. In John 1:1,14 ~ John tells the reader that "In the beginning was God and the WORD WAS WITH GOD and the WORD WAS GOD. Trinitarians misuse the LOGOS (word) in this situation. Logos means "Thought, Words spoken, the idea God had, His word was God because the words came from God, does this mean that the word is a Second person of the Godhead? NO,

In John Jesus says "before Abraham "I Am". They take this scripture as to say That Jesus is God the Son. In many scripture Jesus says "the Father is in me" he never said that the Father is in unity with me. Jesus never spoke himself (John 14: 9-12), who spoke through Jesus, God the Son? No, it was The Father. If God the son was all powerful and equal to the Father, then why didnt God the Son speak through Jesus? How come God the son had to listen to the Father? Something doesn't seem right. Jesus is the "I Am" because Jesus was not speaking but the Father in Jesus was speaking, The Father was saying, i am the great "I Am", Jesus never made himself out to be God or the Father because In (Philippians 2: 7-8) it says God made himself of NO REPUTATION, he HUMBLED himself, and was unto like a SERVANT. Servant of who? God.

The question is why was Jesus called the SON? Jesus was known as the son not because the bible refers to him as being God the son who came down in heaven but he is the son because he was born of woman and concieved of the Holy Ghost making him to be a SON, notice that Jesus was concieved by the Holy Ghost. If the Holy Ghost was the third person of the Godhead then Jesus would have two Fathers, Trinitarians have a hard time answering this questions as well but oneness doesn't , we simply say "as you can see, the Father and Holy ghost are the same person, the holy Ghost is God in action and the Father is the only God according to (1 Cor 8: 6) etc. Malicah said "dont we all have but one Father, Jesus was refered to as the Father in Isaiah 9: 6, regardless if people say it meant Father of eternity, Jesus was still the Father but we only have one Father, If the trinity was true, then we would have two Fathers. Trinitarians make an excuse for this scripture. in John 8: 19,24,27 Jesus tryed to tell the people that he was the Father but they still didn't get it. Jesus spoke in proverbs alot and it threw alot of people off but then Jesus said in John 16: 25 ~ their would be a time when i will no longer speak in proverbs but will reveal to you the Father Plainly.

Jesus told the apostles he was the Father in John 14: 9, Jesus also claimed to be the holy ghost in John 14: 17-26, Jesus said i will come to you yet in a little while, he also said the world doesn't see the spirit of truth but you do because he dwells with you, yet the spirit was leaving because Jesus physical body was leaving, they were in comfort when Jesus was there and the spirit was also their. The holy Ghost came in Jesus name, Notice that people in todays world ask Jesus to come into their hearts. Are their two spirits? No, Jesus is the comforter. The comforter could not come until Jesus left, why? wasn't it possible? Jesus physical was leaving but yet he was comming back as the spirit to dwell with the apostles (John 14: 18).

The only distinction that the bible makes and oneness believe is Body and Spirit, Jesus physical body was not a spirit and the Father was not a physical body. The Father dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in the Father. Jesus was the bright expression of his Father and was the express image of the FATHERS PERSON (not God the Son) In the greetings of the new testament, Paul never gave attention to the Holy Spirit but only to God and Jesus. If the holy spirit was another seperate person, then Paul should have given him attention as well but the spirit is the Father in action. Jesus the MAN is our mediator between us and God, he is the only way we can't get to God, its not another person in the Godhead who died on the cross, it was the body that the Father put on who died. the body is the Son not a second person of the Godhead.

Whos sits on the throne of God. you said "Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God". This is true but not in the way some trinitarians thank, when John had a vision, he saw ONE throne not two, The right hand of God symbolizes power. In many cases did the bible refer to the right hand of God as power. In Matthew 28: 18 ~... all power is given Jesus in heaven. Thus Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God. Matthew 19: 28 ~... the son of man shall sit in the throne of glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 25: 31 ~... the son of man... then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. Rev 20: 11 ~ And is saw a great white throne and him that sat upon it. Are these scriptures indicating that there are two thrones in heaven? Or One? Are they saying that there are two people sitting on one throne? NO. Sir I hope that I helped you some but I am not finished yet (far from it) lol. I pray that my writing was understandable and not misspelled or anything. God bless.

[ordinaryguy]

You could consider this:

whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].
¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Does that sound alright?

I'll ask the question again. Does the Lord's Prayer need to be amended to add "in Jesus' name" before God will hear it? If every prayer must have these words attached to it, why did Jesus leave them out of the model prayer he gave to his disciples?

[Morganite]

Sir, here are some ways that trinitarians look at their belief, They see God as being three seperate persons that are not the same as the other but they are all God, the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Ghost and the son is not the Holy Ghost. How Trinitarians got this concept is by misinterpretation of the bible. In John 1:1,14 ~ John tells the reader that "In the beginning was God and the WORD WAS WITH GOD and the WORD WAS GOD. Trinitarians misuse the LOGOS (word) in this situation. Logos means "Thought, Words spoken, the idea God had, His word was God because the words came from God, does this mean that the word is a Second person of the Godhead? NO,

In John Jesus says "before Abraham "I Am". They take this scripture as to say That Jesus is God the Son. In many scripture Jesus says "the Father is in me" he never said that the Father is in unity with me. Jesus never spoke himself (John 14: 9-12), who spoke through Jesus, God the Son? No, it was The Father. If God the son was all powerful and equal to the Father, then why didnt God the Son speak through Jesus? How come God the son had to listen to the Father? Something doesn't seem right. Jesus is the "I Am" because Jesus was not speaking but the Father in Jesus was speaking, The Father was saying, i am the great "I Am", Jesus never made himself out to be God or the Father because In (Philippians 2: 7-8) it says God made himself of NO REPUTATION, he HUMBLED himself, and was unto like a SERVANT. Servant of who? God.

The question is why was Jesus called the SON? Jesus was known as the son not because the bible refers to him as being God the son who came down in heaven but he is the son because he was born of woman and concieved of the Holy Ghost making him to be a SON, notice that Jesus was concieved by the Holy Ghost. If the Holy Ghost was the third person of the Godhead then Jesus would have two Fathers, Trinitarians have a hard time answering this questions as well but oneness doesn't , we simply say "as you can see, the Father and Holy ghost are the same person, the holy Ghost is God in action and the Father is the only God according to (1 Cor 8: 6) etc. Malicah said "dont we all have but one Father, Jesus was refered to as the Father in Isaiah 9: 6, regardless if people say it meant Father of eternity, Jesus was still the Father but we only have one Father, If the trinity was true, then we would have two Fathers. Trinitarians make an excuse for this scripture. in John 8: 19,24,27 Jesus tryed to tell the people that he was the Father but they still didn't get it. Jesus spoke in proverbs alot and it threw alot of people off but then Jesus said in John 16: 25 ~ their would be a time when i will no longer speak in proverbs but will reveal to you the Father Plainly.

Jesus told the apostles he was the Father in John 14: 9, Jesus also claimed to be the holy ghost in John 14: 17-26, Jesus said i will come to you yet in a little while, he also said the world doesn't see the spirit of truth but you do because he dwells with you, yet the spirit was leaving because Jesus physical body was leaving, they were in comfort when Jesus was there and the spirit was also their. The holy Ghost came in Jesus name, Notice that people in todays world ask Jesus to come into their hearts. Are their two spirits? No, Jesus is the comforter. The comforter could not come until Jesus left, why? wasn't it possible? Jesus physical was leaving but yet he was comming back as the spirit to dwell with the apostles (John 14: 18).

The only distinction that the bible makes and oneness believe is Body and Spirit, Jesus physical body was not a spirit and the Father was not a physical body. The Father dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in the Father. Jesus was the bright expression of his Father and was the express image of the FATHERS PERSON (not God the Son) In the greetings of the new testament, Paul never gave attention to the Holy Spirit but only to God and Jesus. If the holy spirit was another seperate person, then Paul should have given him attention as well but the spirit is the Father in action. Jesus the MAN is our mediator between us and God, he is the only way we can't get to God, its not another person in the Godhead who died on the cross, it was the body that the Father put on who died. the body is the Son not a second person of the Godhead.

Whos sits on the throne of God. you said "Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God". This is true but not in the way some trinitarians thank, when John had a vision, he saw ONE throne not two, The right hand of God symbolizes power. In many cases did the bible refer to the right hand of God as power. In Matthew 28: 18 ~ ...all power is given Jesus in heaven. Thus Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God. Matthew 19: 28 ~ ...the son of man shall sit in the throne of glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 25: 31 ~...the son of man...then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory. Rev 20: 11 ~ And is saw a great white throne and him that sat upon it. Are these scriptures indicating that their are two thrones in heaven? or One? are they saying that their are two people sitting on one throne? NO. Sir i hope that i helped you some but i am not finished yet (far from it) lol. I pray that my writing was understandable and not mispelled or anything. God bless.

I am not making a case for Trinitarianism, nor for Oneness that seems to have a lot in common with Trinitarian thinking. My Bible shows that The Son is not the Father, and the Holy Ghost is another, separate, person in a Godhead of three individual persons whose oneness is in purpose and not in substance.

Not all the Bible is allegorical, and the eye witness report of the proto-martyr Stephen (Acts 7.55-57) identifies the separate locations of three persons, and other passages, especially in John, which I believe you misunderstand and wrongly interpret.

The kenotic passage you quote raises significant difficulties both for your position and for the trinitarian view, where Jesus emptied himself in the incarnation. Being thus emptied [of what was he emptied?], immediately prior to his atoning crucifixion we find himself pleading to his Father, not to himself, to restore the glory he had WITH the Father before he emptied himself of it to walk as man-God among men and not be seen to be different, even though he was.

If Jesus the Son of God - emptied or otherwise - was the same person as God the Father, why was it necessary for Jesus to petition the Father to restore his glory, why could he not simply restore it himself by a divine act?

There are passages where Jesus prays to God the Father for wisdom before making momentous decisions, such as choosing the apostles. If he was none other than the father-God what purpose would he have in consulting himself?

Further, the Gospel of John is a delicious feast of passages in which Jesus is showm to be divine but yet dependent upon the Father-God, and, for example, turning away from himself the appellation of 'good,' directing the Rich Youn man to call none good save One, and that was not Jesus himself. John contains many similar passages where Jesus makes a sharp distinction between himself and God the Father that cannot be ignonred nor passed over, but all must be taken into account when we are trying to unravel truths about the Godhead from the pages of scripture.

What is Jesus saying when he tells Mary not to cling to him because he has not yet ascended to his Father in Heaven, but instructs her to tell the disciples that he is going to go to their God and his God, and to their father and to his father? If Jesus was the father himself, his words would be a nonsense. Only iof his Father were a separate operson do they make sense.

In John 14, he identifies the three separate persons of the Godhead. When he goes, he will send 'another comforter.' If his disciples are faithful, then he promises that both he and the Father will abide with them. If Jesus was both the Father and the second comforter, then why didn't he simply say so? He didn't say so because it isn't true. God is not the author of confusion, so we must believe what Jesus says, take into account everything he says about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and not confuse them as being One in Oneness or One in Trinity.

The question of this thread is did Jesus ever say he was God, meaning, I assume, that he was God the father. The answer from his own mouth has to be"No!" He showed himself to be subordinate to the Father:

"Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me. nevertheless NOT MY WILL, BUT THINE BE DONE"

Here, Jesus plainly and without any absence of clarity, differentiates between his own will and the will of the Father, and chooses to subserviate his own will to that of the Father. Nothing could be more plain or incapable of being misunderstood.

I enjoy your posts, but please do not be concerned with spelling etc. As you can see, I often make mistakes. I shall read what you say, and not how you spell it.

M:)RGANITE

[Morganite]

I'll ask the question again. Does the Lord's Prayer need to be amended to add "in Jesus' name" before God will hear it? If every prayer must have these words attached to it, why did Jesus leave them out of the model prayer he gave to his disciples?

OG, as far as I am concerned you may do with the Lord's example or prayer as you will. I am not among the number who believe that if you do not ask in the name of Jesus that God will refuse to hear your words or that they will not be carried to his ears. However, I am among the number who consider it appropriate in the light of what Jesus said that I quoted earlier that it is a proper thing to ask the Father in the name of Jesus.

I believe that God hears the pryaers of Jews, Muslims, Hindoos, Jains, Buddhists, Wiccans, etc. and all who raise their voices to Him in acknowledgement of his divinity irresepective of their theological perspective. "The fervent effectual prayer of a righteous person availeth much," It's in the Book and I live by it.



M:)

[ordinaryguy]

I believe that God hears the pryaers of Jews, Muslims, Hindoos, Jains, Buddhists, Wiccans, etc., and all who raise their voices to Him in acknowledgement of his divinity irresepective of their theological perspective. "The fervent effectual prayer of a righteous person availeth much," It's in the Book and I live by it.
M:)

I'll say amen to that.

[Retrotia]

I do have to clarify what I said about prayers maybe not being heard if they are addressed to God, but not using "in the name of Jesus" somewhere in the prayer.
Ordinaryguy gave a good example of the Lord's Prayer to show that that isn't true. In defending the deity of Christ(as what I was responding to) I did forget that the prayers of Christians are not limited to only praying in Jesus' name but to God or Father also.
The Lord's prayer (remember this was Jesus speaking) is always a wholesome prayer. If Jesus would have said "Our God in Heaven" or even "Jesus in Heaven" now, that wouldn't sound right. So I must say from what I know that there is no 'wrong way' to pray- that God hears all that revere Him.

What I disagree with you Morganite on prayer about is- that God doesn't answer prayers when addressed to other gods. It would be against His own 1st commandment. God must know who truly believe in Him.

As far as the Nicene creed is concerned, Morganite... the Trinity in particular seems to say the same thing in definition as what the unitarian view is stating.
You say you believe in the 3 as far as purpose-but not substance-
Well, as soon as I can figure that out (if I can) I guess I'll post it.

Maybe it is inferred that Jesus is God in many passages- Ephes.5:26 says Christ is our sanctifier, yet in Jude1-yet the Father sanctifies us. Jesus does have some limitations (like not knowing the time or hour of His return) so He isn't omniscient as the Father. But does it really matter when God gave us both Christ & Himself? And the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost is a pagan term I found out btw)
Another question I have. I hope I'm not getting away from the original question too much but:
Jesus promises the disciples another comforter will come & to wait for the Spirit(H.S) Spirit of truth (at Pentecost) correct?
But in John 20:22-When Jesus appeared to the disciples after resurrection, he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit." Now, did the disciples get an extra baptism here for the Holy Spirit? Or was Jesus giving the Apostles a jump-start so they could immediately start preaching the Word?
What is the difference in the experience of receiving the H.S. then & then again at Pentecost?