[Tj3]

Tom, How do you know what is in their heart?

I am going by their testimony which indicates a gospel that does not align with the Biblical gospel.

[Tj3]

And where did He do that?

Fred,

Perhaps you missed my earlier post. Here it is again.

Let’s look at it in the context of scripture:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Jesus speaks of two things:

1) Being born of water.
2) being born of Spirit

Then he speaks of two things again:

1) Being born of the flesh
2) Bring born of the spirit.

The Jews used a literary form called parallelism frequently. In this case you are essentially equating things by parallel comparison, placed in their respective order. In this case, we see being born of water equated to being born of the flesh. We are all born of the flesh, but not all are born of the spirit (born again), and yet He says that both are essential.

[niaro]

Well my friend at the resurection their we will receive our rewards acoording to the acts we do on earth, those who follows the actions of Jesus from the babtisms and righteosness reacieve the highest order of heaven for their reward i.e. the celestial kingdom which has glory like the sun, I think that the thief beside Jesus on the cross will acquired the third level of the kingdom the telestial kingdom or better yet the second level which is the terrestrial kigdom but certainly not the celestial kingdom which only can be attained through baptism in water and following the paths of righteosness, I'm afraid to say that thos christians who do not get baptised through immersion of water like Jesus will either inherit the second or third level of the Kingdom of God

[niaro]

The bible actually says born again? I would like to know where.
Must be baptised in order to get in heaven we must be born again, where does it say that?
Where is it implied?

In the heart dude you must be born again, or more specifically by the way you be thinking and having the out look on life

[jakester]

well my friend at the resurection their we will recieve our rewards acoording to the acts we do on earth, those who follows the actions of Jesus from the babtisms and righteosness reacieve the highest order of heaven for their reward ie the celestial kingdom which has glory like the sun, i think that the thief beside Jesus on the cross will acquired the third level of the kingdom the telestial kingdom or better yet the second level which is the terrestrial kigdom but certainly not the celestial kingdom which only can be attained through baptism in water and following the paths of righteosness, im afraid to say that thos christians who do not get baptised through immersion of water like Jesus will either inherit the second or third level of the Kingdom of God

niaro - I don't think there are levels to heaven such as you are describing... I wonder if you are referring to the 3rd heaven Paul talks about which I take to simply mean, the kingdom of God. There is a separateness to the earth, the atmosphere, and the realm of God which I believe is what Paul refers to as the 3rd heaven. But niaro, God does not reduce his followers to categories like ultra-Christian, decent-Christian, and marginal-Christian. That's a construct of our own imagination because that is how we see ourselves as better than some but less than some, etc.

What you are putting forth is not a biblical concept by any means but perhaps a misunderstanding of what Paul mentions in Corinthians.

Sincerely.

[arcura]

sndbay,
Your question to Tj3 is a good one.
It falls into the category of thou shalt not judge.
Tom does NOT know what is in a person's heart who had been baptized, only God knows. Yet Tom claims to know baptized people who are not saved.
Only God is the judge.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

sndbay,
Your question to Tj3 is a good one.
It falls into the category of thou shalt not judge.
Tom does NOT know what is in a person's heart who had been baptized, only God knows. Yet Tom claims to know baptized people who are not saved.
Only God is the judge.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

If someone professes a false gospel, or if someone denies the true God, why would you call that judging their heart? It is judging their words, which scripture commands us to do.

- Be not deceived (requires judgment (Matt 24:4, Luke 21:8, 2 Thess.2:3;
Eph.5:6; Colossians 2:8).
- Test spirits (to test requires a pass/fail judgment) (John 4:1)
- Apostle Paul accused the believers at Galatia of being "foolish" and "bewitched" (Gal.2:1), and which caused him to wish that the false teachers would castrate themselves because of their deceptive teaching about circumcision (Gal.5:12).
- Jesus congratulated the church at Ephesus for rooting out false apostles (Rev.2:1-3).
- The Apostle Paul says that he "did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears" about the false teachers who troubled the church at Ephesus both from within and without (Acts 20:28-31).
- John 7:24 Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

[arcura]

Tj3
You have yet to answer my question where did Jesus say that water is flesh?
If that is the case then where Scripture says the Jesus and his disciples when out baptizing where the was much water, it was mush flesh.
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3
You have yet to answer my question where did Jesus say that water is flesh?
If that is the case then where Scripture says the Jesus and his disciples when out baptizing where the was much water, it was mush flesh.
Fred

I did Fred, twice. How many times would you like?

[arcura]

Tj3,
One more time, please and I hope that I will see it.
Fred

[sndbay]

Tj3,
One more time, please and I hope that I will see it.
Fred

Post #42 is what you are looking for Fred.


What I can't confirm in what Tom is saying is whether he believes baptism is essentail to his faith in Christ Jesus. I have seen where some think it is obedience to do so, and so they are baptized. Which I can acknowledge that baptism is an act of righteousness in obedience to the Will of God.

However I also believe baptism takes on a deeper understanding because once we are baptized scripture tells us that his hand of fire is within. Christ dwells within us. Scripture also saw once baptized we are dead in Christ and able to rise as He did. Scripture after scripture gives evidence of baptism being essentail, and sufficient in follow faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:26-27 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Matthew 3:13-14 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Reference: Luke 3:21-22 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

If anyone believes scripture is the Word of God, and their faith does confess belief in the begotten Son of God as Christ Jesus, then baptism as it is written, is profitable in offering godliness.

One can not go their own way and preach their own solution with a mixture of reasonings. I feel false teaching has shown this method in evidence already.

Where if we would just hear HIS voice and see HIS example, we could find our way in HIS way.

[homesell]

"For neither is circumcision anything nor uncircumcision, but a new creation." Galatians 6:15

Circumcision was the hot topic among new Christians in that day, after all, Jesus was circumcised and it was something we could do to help in the process.
Paul considered the NEW CREATION to be of utmost importance. Nothing matters except this creative work of God! Neither circumcision, nor baptism, nor any other external human action or religious rite is "anything" if the new creation is absent. On the other hand, if God has made us new creatures, the absence of circumcision("uncircumcision") or baptism or speaking in tongues or any other religious rite is not "anything" either! The only thing that matters for any of us is this: "Am I a new creature, or am I still the same person that I have always been?" If I am the same person that I've always been, then I am not a Christian, and no amount of church attendance, liturgy, religious ceremony, "going forward at the invitation" or "accepting Jesus" means anything.

[sndbay]

"For neither is circumcision anything nor uncircumcision, but a new creation." Galations 6:15

Circumcision was the hot topic among new Christians in that day, after all, Jesus was circumcised and it was something we could do to help in the process.
Paul considered the NEW CREATION to be of utmost importance. Nothing matters except this creative work of God! Neither circumcision, nor baptism, nor any other external human action or religious rite is "anything" if the new creation is absent. On the other hand, if God has made us new creatures, the absence of circumcision("uncircumcision") or baptism or speaking in tongues or any other religious rite is not "anything" either! The only thing that matters for any of us is this: "Am I a new creature, or am I still the same person that I have always been?" If I am the same person that I've always been, then I am not a Christian, and no amount of church attendance, liturgy, religious ceremony, "going forward at the invitation" or "accepting Jesus" means anything.

Okay and this goes back to one point of fact. The heart is the circumcision which is the love of Christ, faith to follow, faith in HIS way being the only way.. The vine .. Hear HIS VOICE which is the simplicity of Christ Jesus

And Paul feared we might be beguiled as Eve was by enticing words.

[homesell]

Right sndbay,
So no believer would think that maybe they have an old heart and a new heart, God specifically says, "I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh". EZekiel 36:26 Instead of a hard, cold, unfeeling heart, the christian is given a soft, warm, living heart that is sensitive to the things of God.

[sndbay]

Right sndbay,
So no believer would think that maybe they have an old heart and a new heart, God specifically says, "I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh". EZekiel 36:26 Instead of a hard, cold, unfeeling heart, the christian is given a soft, warm, living heart that is sensitive to the things of God.

Ezekiel 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.


For there is a promise from God...

[Tj3]

Tj3,
One more time, please and I hope that I will see it.
Fred

Third time, Fred.

--------------------

Fred,

Perhaps you missed my earlier post. Here it is again.

Let’s look at it in the context of scripture:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Jesus speaks of two things:

1) Being born of water.
2) being born of Spirit

Then he speaks of two things again:

1) Being born of the flesh
2) Bring born of the spirit.

The Jews used a literary form called parallelism frequently. In this case you are essentially equating things by parallel comparison, placed in their respective order. In this case, we see being born of water equated to being born of the flesh. We are all born of the flesh, but not all are born of the spirit (born again), and yet He says that both are essential.

[jenniepepsi]

I don't know if anyone will agree with me, but here are my thoughts.

Being baptised is encouraged, and should be done.

But I don't ever recall hearing jesus once say 'you will not go to heaven if your not baptized'

The ONLY requirement for salvation is to believe in jesus christ as the lord and savior.

BUT jesus also said that he wants us to be baptized. So I believe we should all do it.

But no I don't believe it's a REQUIREMENT

But if you already believe in jesus christ as your savior, why not take that extra step? :)

[Tj3]

I dont know if anyone will agree with me, but here are my thoughts.

being baptised is encouraged, and should be done.

but i dont ever recall hearing jesus once say 'you will not go to heaven if your not baptized'

the ONLY requirement for salvation is to believe in jesus christ as the lord and savior.

BUT jesus also said that he wants us to be baptized. so i believe we should all do it.

but no i dont believe its a REQUIREMENT

but if you already believe in jesus christ as your savior, why not take that extra step? :)

Nice summary of what we find in scripture.

[JoeT777]

Do you have to be baptized in water to be saved? I know that it is a good thing to do, but is it more a symbol of our Christian faith or is it necesary for salvation? I have read the Bible but still not sure. I have asked but always get different answers. I mean even Jesus was baptized with water, but the theif on the cross next to him was saved by faith. Any answers would be a great help. Thanks in advance.

Baptism is a grace absolutely necessary for salvation, without it there can be no justification. The reason is in the way that John the Baptist prepared (Cf. Is 40.3). Immersion symbolized death, the flood of Noah. The river Jordan would have been a symbolic representation of the flood waters. In antiquity, immersion was considered purification, the liberation from actual sin and original sin that is preceded by confession, an act of perfect contrition (Cf. Mk 1:4). Coming out of the water would be a re-birth, the heavens opened for Christ. For the militant of the Church it is a breach into communion with Christ’s Church (Cf. 1 Peter 2:9).

It’s a universal call to holiness and communion with his Church. St. Jerome said "Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they cannot possibly be vivified in Christ," St. Ambrose (II De Abraham. c. xi) speaking of the necessity of baptism, says:"

Baptism turns us into a new person, “an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.”CCC 1265

It’s not just an outward sign, rather a necessity for salvation. We know that the Apostles were sent out commanded, “teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost” Matt 28:19 "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Mk 16:15-16

JoeT

[Tj3]

Baptism is a grace absolutely necessary for salvation, without it there can be no justification. The reason is in the way that John the Baptist prepared (Cf. Is 40.3).

John the Baptist was performing a Jewish ritual known as the Mikeveh which is described in Hebrews 9 as symbolic.

Heb 9:9-10:1
9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience-- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
NKJV

The word translated as "various" washings" referring to the Jewish mikveh is the word "baptismos" in Greek, translated elsewhere as "baptism. And what is it symbolic of? Salvation through Christ.

I note that the prime focus of your arguments come from the teachings of your denomination.