[Tj3]

Yes this is the speculation in which I believe is possible as well. (noted that it is a speculation resourced by what scripture gives us)

An earth age that existed before this earth age, that went on for years before the creation of man in God's image known as ( 6 day creation). And yes speculation includes that satan was at that time frame, the Lucifer who is referenced in (Isa:14:16) as the man who will come, and does today still attempt to imprison men with the worm of material lusts, and not spiritual heart of love. Lucifer's (fall the division of assigned bondage) from heaven is referenced in (Isa 14:12) That fall caused the earth to tremble, and did shake kingdoms and made the world a wilderness. The same Lucifer who of pride within his heart was recognized by God, to exalt
himself above God the MOSY HIGH.

*********
Speculataion includes reference of scientic resource, and studies being done that show evidence to the age of this world, and the covered age of what once was.

The problem is that, as I pointed out previously, there are numerous problems with the gap theory, and there is a much simpler theory which takes scripture at face value and which does not suffer from those problems.

The wonders of God's Creation. One of those wonders is a dinosaur recently discovered frozen in Antarctica, thought to be quite ancient. This dinosaur is thought to be 190 million years old.

Dinosaur Found Frozen in Antarctica

First, I went to this link and there are no details or references regarding this finding. Do have a better link for information on this claim?

There are many many findings similar to this which evolutuionists struggle with but which are easily explained by the Young Earth theory.

[sndbay]

The problem is that, as I pointed out previously, there are numerous problems with the gap theory, and there is a much simpler theory which takes scripture at face value and which does not suffer from those problems.

Simplier theory in the age of years, and satan's fall from his assigned bondage? I would like to hear..

First, I went to this link and there are no details or references regarding this finding. Do have a better link for information on this claim?

not without joining and wanting donation to the research. The research comes from a team of countries with the USA included.

There are many many findings similar to this which evolutuionists struggle with but which are easily explained by the Young Earth theory.

The Young Earth theory? Does this prove to be that the earth is not as old as these other studies say, I am guessing?

[Tj3]

Simpler theory in the age of years, and satan's fall from his assigned bondage? I would like to hear..

Tell me where you find problems with the YEC approach, and let's discuss.

not without joining and wanting donation to the research. The research comes from a team of countries with the USA included.

I may do some research of my own later and see if I can come up with more information. It would be a very interesting finding if it can be validated, just like animal that they dragged up in a Japanese fishing trawler in 1977 (a picture is on my website in the Creation section at discern.ca if you have not see it previously)

The Young Earth theory? Does this prove to be that the earth is not as old as these other studies say, I am guessing?

The YEC takes scripture literally with respect to the Genesis account. Keep in mind that the claims of age are all based on multiple assumptions because, without observation, it is impossible to actually prove the age. Some assumptions bear greater validity than others, but all in all, many of the claims would only need one assumption to be slightly in error to make a dramatic change in dates.

[Akoue]

my website in the Creation section at discern.ca

Interesting. So that is your website? I ask because you claimed here awhile back that it was not yours but that you simply provided a link to it.

[Tj3]

Interesting. So that is your website? I ask because you claimed here awhile back that it was not yours but that you simply provided a link to it.

No, that was a completely different website that Joe claimed was mine and it is not.

You are not going to start that line of false accusations again are you?

[classyT]

Interesting. So that is your website? I ask because you claimed here awhile back that it was not yours but that you simply provided a link to it.

Akoue,

What is your point? Are you suggesting tj3 is being deceitful? I try hard to give you the benefit of the doubt when I read your posts but it is getting exceedingly hard to believe you have the best intentions...

[Akoue]

Akoue,

what is your point? are you suggesting tj3 is being deceitful? I try hard to give you the benefit of the doubt when i read your posts but it is getting exceedingly hard to believe you have the best intentions.....

That's okay. I won't hold it against you.

[Tj3]

Here is additional information on the dinosaur fossils found in the Antarctic.

Two New Dinosaurs Discovered in Antarctica

Again, this is entirely in line with YEC, if you realize that the age estimates are based upon a pretty significant number of assumptions.

[sndbay]

Tell me where you find problems with the YEC approach, and let's discuss.

.

Tj3, you certain gave me some home work..

However I have done some research on the ideas of YEC.

First let me say that I would accept scripture in saying God has created us, and according to HIS measure, has gifted each of us to doctors, teachers, ect.. and that would include scientists. Because without science where would we be to aid by doctor's the sick. And I read nothing as to whether the YEC would accept this as fact or speculation.

Second would be that everything I have given in reference has included the scriptures, and has held confimed in a 6 day creation that follows by Genesis 1:5 in the 24 hour day known as night and morning was established. This sets the time clock of what we confirm today in our calendars.
a.) So YECs are fundamentally opposed to any explanation for the origins of anything which replaces God as the universal creator as stated in the Bible. I have not done that, and would also be opposed that.
b.) Most YEC organizations reject the gap theory, and say it is unscriptural, unscientific, and not necessary, in its various forms. It is asserted that the entire universe is only thousands of years old. Well I am not sure whether this gap theory has speculated on all the scripture references that I have, but it does appear on the surface of being the same as what I noted by scripture. AND the speculation does certainly give allowance to science reasearch.

Third is the very idea that God does exist, and was, is, and always will be. At what point in age and time does the YEC give allowance to what was before the 6 day creation? The very existence of God, and what was more then just possibly, more then speculation, and very evident. Perhaps you can tell me? Is that not biblical or not necessary to the YEC?

Fourth is that most YECs today argue that Adam did not have a navel, the Omphalos hypothesis . It is purely speculation on my part, but I have always thought Adam would indeed have a navel just as we today. And the reference of cord of life would be with Eve and the female womb. And the silver cord within the flesh body that releases when our bodies die. Somehow my specualtion says the YEC as shown their Omphalos hypothesis as being unscriptural, unscientific, and not necessary.

My evening of research..

[galveston]

I am not auguing for or against the YEC. I only submitted the OP for the purpose of showing that Bible believers can, and do, have different thoughts about our origens. Neither YEC or gap theory deny inspiration of scripture.

The gap theory does give a defence against those who ridicule the Bible record.

[Tj3]

Tj3, you certain gave me some home work..

However I have done some research on the ideas of YEC.

First let me say that I would accept scripture in saying God has created us, and according to HIS measure, has gifted each of us to doctors, teachers, etc.. And that would include scientists. Because without science where would we be to aid by doctor's the sick. And I read nothing as to whether the YEC would accept this as fact or speculation.

I don't know what you are saying. No YEC that I know of would disagree with disagree. Indeed the YEC beliefs are based upon science. Maybe you don't know, but my background is scientific. I used to hold to belief in evolution, to the extent that I would defend using some of the same arguments not used againt my position. It was a combination of the facts from science and the facts from the Bible which convinced me. At first, I tried coming to a compromise position - theistic evolution, and found that to be the hardest position to defend. As I continued to research, I found that there was actually nothing in science which is contrary to the YEC position, and in fact there is much in the way of scientific findings which validated YEC positions.

The reason that many people seem to think that science and YEC are at odds, is that they look at the timeframes given as being proven facts. That is not true. They are conclusions based upon numerous assumptions combined with the findings. Minor changes in the assumptions can make dramatic changes in the timeframes.

the biggest issue that I have with some scientists, and this tends to be the died in the wool evolutionists, is that they do not separate fact from assumption, and tell us that they assumptions are fact. Fortunately there are a large number of scientists both secular and Christian who are willing to state what is and is not proven and what is and is not an assumption.

Second would be that everything I have given in reference has included the scriptures, and has held confimed in a 6 day creation that follows by Genesis 1:5 in the 24 hour day known as night and morning was established. This sets the time clock of what we confirm today in our calendars.

But you have redefined heaven to try to re-set when the 6 days started and have re-interpreted Jeremiah by ignoring the fact that it specifically states that it is a prophetic pronouncement about Jerusalem.

a.) So YECs are fundamentally opposed to any explanation for the origins of anything which replaces God as the universal creator as stated in the Bible. I have not done that, and would also be opposed that.

By definition, a creationist of any sort would agree.

b.) Most YEC organizations reject the gap theory, and say it is unscriptural, unscientific, and not necessary, in its various forms. It is asserted that the entire universe is only thousands of years old. Well I am not sure whether this gap theory has speculated on all the scripture references that I have, but it does appear on the surface of being the same as what I noted by scripture. AND the speculation does certainly give allowance to science reasearch.

The point is that speculation is not fact and must be validated to be considered anything other than speculation. Speculation is not science. Speculation combined with observation may lead to an hypothesis which could be tested, and that would lead to a scientific finding. Now as for proving the history of the world by pure science, that is almost impossible by definition since not all factors can be tested, therefore assumptions will always exist.

However, if we combine scripture (using the one eyewitness that we have - God), we have the avility to look at the findings in a different way, and to modify the assumptions while staying within the realm of feasibility to see if we have a match.

Third is the very idea that God does exist, and was, is, and always will be. At what point in age and time does the YEC give allowance to what was before the 6 day creation? The very existence of God, and what was more then just possibly, more then speculation, and very evident. Perhaps you can tell me? Is that not biblical or not necessary to the YEC?

Again, I am not clear on what your question is. As for what was before the 6 days, scripture tells us that it was nothing other than Him (the trinity), and as far as we can tell, the angels.

Fourth is that most YECs today argue that Adam did not have a navel, the Omphalos hypothesis . It is purely speculation on my part, but I have always thought Adam would indeed have a navel just as we today. And the reference of cord of life would be with Eve and the female womb. And the silver cord within the flesh body that releases when our bodies die. Somehow my specualtion says the YEC as shown their Omphalos hypothesis as being unscriptural, unscientific, and not necessary.

This whole thing about a navel is a matter of speculation for certain and is not by any means something that adds to our knowledge of creation. I know no YECs who see such speculation as important and only rare ones who even have an interest in discussing it. It is not relevant.

[sndbay]

But you have redefined heaven to try to re-set when the 6 days started and have re-interpreted Jeremiah by ignoring the fact that it specifically states that it is a prophetic pronouncement about Jerusalem.

No the intention was not to dismiss the facts that this was written to example the remorse God would want the men of Judah and Jerusalem to feel. But that it was the pain of heart God felt that they had not circumcised their hearts in righteousness and love.

Jeremiah 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

God's heart is in the depth of pain when HIS words says: (Jeremaih 4:19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war. )

"Destruction upon destruction is cried"

"How long shall I see the standard"

"hear the sound of the trumpet? "

"My people are foolish"

"They are sottish children"

"They are wise to do evil"

Note God says :
I (saw= pass tense) seen the earth void and without form and the heaven without light. I have seen the mountains tremble and hills removed.

This is what I claim is the void earth and heaven that Genesis 1:2 shows written in saying the earth (became) void and without form.

Again, I am not clear on what your question is. As for what was before the 6 days, scripture tells us that it was nothing other than Him (the trinity), and as far as we can tell, the angels.

Where does scripture tell us that? ALSO If nothing other then God and the angels existed..where? was there a heavenly realm before Genesis 1:1?
My point is that Genesis 1:1 say the heaven and earth were created.

But then you want me to believe without the verse of Genesis 1:2 where it became void, that God began a day by day creation after saying it was created. Where do you or YEC set the time frame and location of satan's fall from his assigned bondage?

[Tj3]

No the intention was not to dismiss the facts that this was written to example the remorse God would want the men of Judah and Jerusalem to feel. But that it was the pain of heart God felt that they had not circumcised their hearts in righteousness and love.

Good. Okay we agree on that point - this is about Jerusalem.

Note God says :
I (saw= pass tense) seen the earth void and without form and the heaven without light. I have seen the mountains tremble and hills removed.

This is what I claim is the void earth and heaven that Genesis 1:2 shows written in saying the earth (became) void and without form.

A few problems here:

1) Why would God suddenly slip a completely off topic remark in the middle of a prophecy about Jerusalem?

2) The fact that it was past tense means nothing. Often in the middle of the prophecy, the text will speak of the future in the past tense, as though the observer of the vision is actually there when the events are occurring. Read the book of Revelation. There are many such examples. It is the context which is important and this is clearly a prophetic vision about Jerusalem.

3) The fact that similar wording is used does not mean that it is speaking abiout the same thing. In this case the scope of the topic is limited to Jerusalem (as we have agree), and as I said above, it would make no sense for God to slip a verse about a completely different topic and a completely different discussion in the middle of a prophecy about a future event regarding something else. The fact that after massive destruction has occurred following a battle or an earthquake, or another catastrophic event does not mean that it must be speaking about the time of creation.

Where does scripture tell us that? ALSO If nothing other then God and the angels existed..where? was there a heavenly realm before Genesis 1:1?

Again, we can only speculate as to what it was like before space and time and the universe existed.

[QUOTE]My point is that Genesis 1:1 say the heaven and earth were created.

We all agree on that. But if the heavens were created in Gen 1:1 then the firmament is not the heaven that was created in Gen 1:1.

[sndbay]

Good. Okay we agree on that point - this is about Jerusalem.

1) Why would God suddenly slip a completely off topic remark in the middle of a prophecy about Jerusalem?

It was more then just Jerusalem. It was the men of Judah and then again about how man is foolish. It was a God's paining heart concerning the continued error of their ways. It was their abominations that God wanted out of HIS sight. The same errors going on and on and on again. How long must the trumpets(alert) sound is blood shed and wickedness. God was speeching of man being foolish from as far back as the beginning ....

The depth of what God's heart and words speak go beyond one moment or one location.

Again, we can only speculate as to what it was like before space and time and the universe existed.

Agree but what I have speculated is that God is endless, From beginning to HIS plan for eternal Life

We all agree on that. But if the heavens were created in Gen 1:1 then the firmament is not the heaven that was created in Gen 1:1.

Lost me on this, Why would you say this? Remember what is written about firmament .

Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

http://levendwater.org/companion/append5.html

[Tj3]

It was more then just Jerusalem. It was the men of Judah and then again about how man is foolish. It was a God's paining heart concerning the continued error of their ways. It was their abominations that God wanted out of HIS sight. The same errors going on and on and on again. How long must the trumpets(alert) sound is blood shed and wickedness. God was speeching of man being foolish from as far back as the beginning...

The point is that it is a specific location.

The depth of what God's heart and words speak go beyond one moment or one location.

True, but God does give specific prophecies such as this for a specific location.

Agree but what I have speculated is that God is endless, From beginning to HIS plan for eternal Life

If you mean God is eternal, we don't need to speculate about that. But that has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

[quote[Lost me on this, Why would you say this? Remember what is written about firmament .[/quote]

That is your claim and assumption, but that is not what scripture says.

Genesis 1:8 [/B]And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

This is verse 8, not verse 1 and is the second day not the first.

[sndbay]

The point is that it is a specific location.

The point is much more then that..

[Tj3]

The point is much more then that..

Nope.

[galveston]

A friend sent me a slide show of photos made through the Hubble telescope.

They were totally AWSOME, and I can not fully grasp the beauty and scope of our God's handiwork!

And then it hit me.

I was looking at those stars and nebulae as they existed thousands of years before Adam. To my mind, that comfirms a gap between Gen 1:1 and vs 2.

What do you say Tom?

John

[Tj3]

A friend sent me a slide show of photos made through the Hubble telescope.

They were totally AWSOME, and I can not fully grasp the beauty and scope of our God's handiwork!

And then it hit me.

I was looking at those stars and nebulae as they existed thousands of years before Adam. To my mind, that comfirms a gap between Gen 1:1 and vs 2.

What do you say Tom?

John

No one doubts the beauty of the heavens. However, what in those photos proves that the stars existed thousands of years before Adam?

[Athos]

No one doubts the beauty of the heavens. However, what in those photos proves that the stars existed thousands of years before Adam?

The speed of light.