[classyT]

I am curious as to what others Christians think of this subject. Some Christians believe Paul is teaching in predestination:

Ephesians: 1:3-5

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

I heard a Pastor once say that what Paul meant was that we were predestined before the foundation of the world to be HOLY and without blame when we stand before the Lord. But he didn't believe that the Lord Jesus predestinated us to be saved. I'm not sure that I really bought into that... what do you think Paul meant?

[De Maria]

I am curious as to what others Christians think of this subject. Some Christians believe Paul is teaching in predestination:

Ephesians: 1:3-5

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

i heard a Pastor once say that what Paul meant was that we were predestined before the foundation of the world to be HOLY and without blame when we stand before the Lord. But he didn't believe that the Lord Jesus predestinated us to be saved. I'm not sure that i really bought into that...what do you think Paul meant?

Yes, the Catholic Church has always taught "predestination". Calvin and Luther disagree on how it is understood by the Church.

[classyT]

Yes, the Catholic Church has always taught "predestination". Calvin and Luther disagree on how it is understood by the Church.

Thanks for your response. I didn't realize that catholics taught it. So I know what John Calvin taught... I don't know what Martin Luther taught regarding predestination. I'm curious as to what the disagreement is, was? What is the catholic understanding and teaching?

[De Maria]

Thanks for your response. I didn't realize that catholics taught it. So I know what John Calvin taught...i don't know what Martin Luther taught regarding predestination. I'm curious as to what the disagreement is, was? What is the catholic understanding and teaching?

This is a very difficult subject for me, so excuse me if I make a mistake. I'm sure other knowledgeable Catholics can help keep me in line.

As I understand the Catholic teaching, God is prescient. He knows everything. Therefore, God knows who is going to be in heaven and who isn't.

But we don't. Therefore, we have to exercise our free will if we want to wind up in heaven.

That's the gist of the Catholic teaching.

The difference with Calvin has to do with irresistible grace. The Church teaches that man has the God given freedom to cooperate with or resist grace.

Whereas, if I understand Calvin, he taught that God's grace was irresistible and thus, those who were predestined were chosen by God to get to heaven.

In one word, you could describe the Catholic teaching as God's foreknowing. God knows who the elect will be.

And Calvin's as Pre-Selection. God pre-selects the elect.

I don't remember Luther's theology on the matter off hand. But I think it is similar to Calvin's.

[Tj3]

This is one of those questions where I do not fall into the usual camps. In past discussions on this topic, I have had Arminians accuse me of being hyper-Calvinist, I have had Calvinists accuse me of being hyper-Arminian, Protestants accuse me of being Catholic and Catholics accuse me of being Protestant - and sometimes all in the same thread. I figure that means that I must have struck a good middle ground :)

I won't try to go into detail in this single post because I don't have time, other than to say that I think that both the Arminian and Calvinist camps are both partly right and partly wrong. I think that they both miss one key factor. When we ask if we are predestined or not, it presumes that everything happens on a time-line which is how we as humans see it because we are trapped inside the constraints of space and time. But God isn't.

Both Arminianism and Calvinism as it pertains to salvation can be found and can be defended scripturally. But I believe both are showing only one dimension of God's plan for salvation. God both foreknows (which allows for our feewill), and God predestined us to be saved. These can b oth be true because God is outside of time. Both concepts work together because God see what will happen and see what has happened and has declared it outside of time.

Think of it this way - when you drive down the highway, you see the car imm3ediately in front of you and the front of the car immediately behind you. You see what is happening in your iommediate "timeframe". Both the traffic helicoptor 2000 feet in the air sees both what is in your past (which you were several minutes ago) and sees the problems several minutes ahead of you because he is not subject to the flow of traffic. So when he tells yolu that you are about to slow down dramatically, is it a prediction or is it foreknowledge? Well, we know that he knows because he can see ahead, but he is also telling you what is in your future journey, so you might see it as both.

This is only a somewhat faulty analogy to help us see what we can never experience while we are here are on earth. God faces no such limitation - He is omniscient - God can see perfectly our entire lives, our complete past, and our complete future. God is also omnipotent - He can declare what is to be. So how do these two factors work together with respect to our salvation? Is it God's foreknowledge, or is it God predestination? Both are true, both work together but in a way that we cannot fully comnprehend. We must accept Jesus as Saviour to be saved, and yet we cannot have faith unless the Holy Spirit gives us faith. One appears to require our full freewill, the other appears to be contrary to it, and yet both are true.

My conclusion? I believe that anyone who tells you that they know perfectly how these two concepts works is wrong. I believe that anyone who says that it is all one way or the other is wrong. I also believe that bother of these concepts are true and are Biblical, and that we struggle with these because of our inability to understand things from God's perspective.

Maybe not a completely satisfying answer for some, but one that I believe can be defended from scripture.

[Wondergirl]

Lutherans believe that election is only positive, that God wants all to be saved. Calvin (different from Luther) maintained that election is irreversible; you can't fall away from being elect.

From rutgers.edu that says it better than I could --

The main problem is that the Lutheran confessional documents make assertions that appear to be in conflict. Furthermore, they do not try to resolve the conflict, because they believe that doing so would require going beyond what God has revealed to us.

The starting perspective is similar to Calvinism. Due to the fall, we are powerless to do anything related to salvation. It's not enough for God to offer us salvation. He has to work in us even to get to the point where we can listen to the offer. Just as Calvin, the Formula of Concord says that those who are saved are elected by God. God establishes all the means needed to redeem the elect. He doesn't just foresee their decision, but does what is needed to bring about their salvation. This is done primarily through preaching the Gospel and the sacraments. "In this his eternal counsel, purpose, and ordinance, God has not only prepared salvation in general, but he has also graciously considered and elected to salvation each and every individual among the elect who are to be saved through Christ, and also ordained that ... he wills by his grace, gifts, and effective working to bring them to salvation, and to help, further, strengthen and preserve them to this end."

God only foresees the fate of the rest. There is no negative election. Those who reject the Gospel are responsible for their own fate.

God wants all to be saved. The offer of the Gospel is seriously made to all.

Before justification, we do not have the ability to do anything towards our salvation. Justification is done entirely by God, through his election of us in Christ. However justification renews our will. At this point the possibility exists either to continue in faith or to reject it. That is, it is possible to be justified and then fall away.

God does foreknow who of those called will believe, who will persevere, and of those who fall away, who will return. In sum, God knows who will be saved and who will not. However he has not revealed this to us, and we are not free to speculate on it.

[classyT]

DeMaria,

Thanks for your post. You helped clarify for me.

TJ3,

Wow, I have never heard it put that way and I think I makes sense... kinda. I do NOT understand it. But that is interesting. I'm going to re read that again and take it all in. I may have more questions for you. In fact... you can COUNT on it.

Wondergirl,

Thanks for the info. But what do you personally believe?

[Wondergirl]

wondergirl, Thanks for the info. But what do you personally believe?

What I posted.

[classyT]

Wondergirl,

Ok but it confuses me... it sounds like you lean more towards John Calvin. Maybe I didn't get enough sleep last night but put it in your own words. If you don't mind

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl,

Ok but it confuses me...it sounds like you lean more towards John Calvin. Maybe i didn't get enough sleep last night but put it in your own words. if you don't mind

I believe what I posted is very clear and very much agrees with what Tom posted.

[classyT]

Wondergirl,

Ok, well I don't think it is clear. I think it is confusing. I think TOM's post is confusing too.

[Wondergirl]

Would you like a chart to organize it? How can I make it clear to you?

[classyT]

Tell me in your own words... I think this is a confusing subject. Ok... how about this, I get that you agree with John Calvin for the most part.. can you explain what you don't agree with him about? I'm really not slow... ok, maybe I am..?. If you can make a chart... feel free to... ;)

[jakester]

Would you like a chart to organize it? How can I make it clear to you?

Wondergirl - she's just trying to understand what your position is... you did already state what you believed but perhaps you could describe it in another way; that's what I believe she's asking. I think you're being a little hard on her.

[jakester]

I am curious as to what others Christians think of this subject. Some Christians believe Paul is teaching in predestination:

Ephesians: 1:3-5

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

i heard a Pastor once say that what Paul meant was that we were predestined before the foundation of the world to be HOLY and without blame when we stand before the Lord. But he didn't believe that the Lord Jesus predestinated us to be saved. I'm not sure that i really bought into that...what do you think Paul meant?

classyT - this is one of those subjects that you cannot avoid when you read the bible because as you pointed out in Ephesians, Paul says that God did predestine us for adoption as his children. I am going to try to get some thoughts going on this post over the weekend.

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl - she's just trying to understand what your position is...you did already state what you believed but perhaps you could describe it in another way; that's what I believe she's asking. I think you're being a little hard on her.

I'll wait until Tom comes back to the board, and the two of us can work together to explain.

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl - she's just trying to understand what your position is...you did already state what you believed but perhaps you could describe it in another way; that's what I believe she's asking. I think you're being a little hard on her.

How is creating a chart being hard on her? I think in charts, with precise headings for columns and rows. If anything, I was bending over backwards to be helpful.

[classyT]

Jakester,

I'd appreciate any of your thoughts.

OK wondergirl... if you get a chance perhaps you and Tom can explain it better to me. This is hard for be to wrap my mind around. Go slow though..

[jakester]

How is creating a chart being hard on her? I think in charts, with precise headings for columns and rows. If anything, I was bending over backwards to be helpful.

Hey wondergirl - no, creating a chart isn't being hard on her; I'm saying that asking if she needed it charted out for her was a little harsh. I think you were dissing her, weren't you? Maybe I had you wrong.

[Wondergirl]

hey wondergirl - no, creating a chart isn't being hard on her; I'm saying that asking if she needed it charted out for her was a little harsh. I think you were dissing her, weren't you? Maybe I had you wrong.

I didn't say, "Do you need a chart." I said, "Would you like a chart to organize it? How can I make it clear to you?"

You had me very wrong.