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N0help4u · Apr 17, 2009, 04:48 PM

I see it mostly as Tj3 said
God is outside of time and knows all things.
We have free will but God already knew every day of our life, numbered every hair on our head, etc...
I sort of think of it as God wrote and produced the play and we could ad lib but he already knew when and where we would exercise our free will.
Sort of like watching a movie over again you already know exactly what is going to happen.

N0help4u · Apr 17, 2009, 04:53 PM

The Bible does say
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will. (Ephe 1:11)

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (Romans 8:29).

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30).

The Best Verses In The Bible | GraceThruFaith

Tj3 · Apr 17, 2009, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

ok wondergirl...if you get a chance perhaps you and Tom can explain it better to me. This is hard for be to wrap my mind around. Go slow though..

Hi Classy,

I know that it is a topic that can be fairly hard to understand at the best of times, so I don't mind taking another shot at trying to clarify it.

There are two options that we normally hear about as both being part of the picture.

Arminiansim: Assumes that our decision comes first, and that God foreknows who will accept Jesus as Saviour. God does not predestine us to be saved.

Calvinism: Assumes that we have no decision and that the whole decision was God's who predestined us before creation to be saved. We have no choice to reject salvation and no choice to be saved. This theological system assumes that God's decision came first, and we became saved second.

So both systems depend upon a timeline.

What I am saying is that both theological system are missing a key attribute of God - He is outside of space and time. If you draw a line from left to right on a piece of paper, that is the timeline that I refer to. To the left, the world is created. To the right is the final judgment. Everyone who ever lived and who ever will live is born and will die somewhere on that timeline. In this diagram, God is above the timeline looking at it from the side. Thus he sees the creation of the world, our birth, our decision for Christ and the final judgment simultaneously. Thus God foreknew because He can see our decision for Christ, and yet He predestined according to scripture. How do these two concepts work together? I don't think that we can fully comprehend it because we cannot understand what it means to be outside of time.

When discussing this, I like this verse:

Rom 8:28-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
NKJV

Does that help?

classyT · Apr 17, 2009, 09:19 PM

Tj3,

OK for me.. that was much clearer.THANK YOU! I agree but never heard it taught that way. I'm copying it for my bible study.. hope you don't mind.

I guess I was always taught... Whosoever will may come but once you DO you learn you were predestined before the foundation of the World. That doesn't make any sense to me either.

But I appreciate your clarifying the best you can. I'm going to spend some time studying it. I know people give you a hard time on here but I think you are a really smart guy. PLUS I respect your biblical knowledge and your ability to to break it down in simple terms.. although I got to tell you understanding God being out of space and time is STILL hard to grasp. But I believe it just the same!

galveston · Apr 18, 2009, 04:06 PM

A simple answer.

Think about who Paul was writing to. He was addressing Christians, saved people, NOT those outside of the Kingdom. In fact, most of the Bible is addressed to believers.

When you understand that, then it becomes clear that God has predestined that ALL saved people be conformed to the image of Christ. That is, He intends for us to become like our Elder Brother, Jesus Christ.

Hope this is helpful.

classyT · Apr 18, 2009, 06:30 PM

Gal,

That is what I heard a Pastor say recently. For me it was like he was saying we were predestined AFTER we became saved to be conformed to the image of Christ. That is a given!! But what about these verses in the Gospel of John, where Jesus is talking...

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me...

No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him...

... no man can come unto me except it were given unto him of my Father

I agree with you that we need to understand who is writing and who it is written to... but these verses were NOT directly written to the church. Jesus was talking to the Jews before there was any knowledge of the church... Do you think they are relevant and tie into what the Apostle Paul said about predestination?

P.S. thanks for keeping it simple.

jakester · Apr 18, 2009, 06:42 PM

classyT - the tension that exists in the topic of predestination is essentially in the following two questions:

1) does God predestine believers according to his foreknowledge of their choices? Because God knows what choices people will make, since he is outside of time and space and knows the future, he knows who will choose to follow him. Based upon his divine foreknowledge of man's choices, he predestines man for salvation based upon his knowledge of the future.

2) Does God choose those whom he will grant eternal life to irrespective of his divine foreknowledge? In other words, the fact that God is outside of time and space has no bearing on predestination because he is the one choosing man for eternal life, not man choosing eternal life.

Books have been written which attempt to outline where the logic breaks down in each of these questions so there's no way Tj3 or me or Galveston can quickly summarize what the answer is in a few short paragraphs (sorry Galveston but it's really not so simple... no disrespect). The reason being is that if you start to follow the logic of either line of questioning above, you run into snags that need to be contemplated.

Honestly, Tess, I don't know if I would even feel comfortable going into detail about it but if you have particular questions, perhaps we can talk through some. I subscribe to something called Divine Determinism which espouses both individual free will and divine sovereignty as compatible. I'm really not one to recommend books to people but I found this book by Jack Crabtree to be a very interesting read:

The Most Real Being: A Biblical and Philosophical Defense of Divine Determinism

I must make a disclaimer, though. This book is not an easy read but reading it is well worth the effort as it deals with some profound issues relating to our choices and God's control over his creation, etc.

Regards.

arcura · Apr 18, 2009, 10:50 PM

classyT,
I believe that due to the infinite and perfect love and mercy of God all souls are predestined to heaven, but it is up to each one of use to achieve that destiny through doing what the New Testament tells us to do.
That is why the bible tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Yes, God already knows how judgment day will say who is going to go where, but we do not.
Only God KNOWS for SURE who is going to go to heaven.
Some folks THINK they know but they may be surprised on that day.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3 · Apr 19, 2009, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

classyT,
I believe that due to the infinite and perfect love and mercy of God all souls are predestined to heaven, but it is up to each one of use to achieve that destiny through doing what the New Testament tells us to do.
That is why the bible tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Yes, God already knows how judgment day will say who is going to go where, but we do not.
Only God KNOWS for SURE who is going to go to heaven.
Some folks THINK they know but they may be surprised on that day.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Right, Fred, we cannot judge the salvation of others, unless their testimony is clear that they have rejected Jesus as Savior. We can know ourselves if we are saved because scripture says that we can have assurance of salvation.

classyT · Apr 19, 2009, 10:51 AM

Fred,

You bring up GREAT points... What do you think the Lord means to work out our faith in fear and trembling? I'd like everyone's thoughts on that too.

classyT · Apr 19, 2009, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by jakester

classyT - the tension that exists in the topic of predestination is essentially in the following two questions:

1) does God predestine believers according to his foreknowledge of their choices? Because God knows what choices people will make, since he is outside of time and space and knows the future, he knows who will choose to follow him. Based upon his divine foreknowledge of man's choices, he predestines man for salvation based upon his knowledge of the future.

2) Does God choose those whom he will grant eternal life to irrespective of his divine foreknowledge? In other words, the fact that God is outside of time and space has no bearing on predestination because he is the one choosing man for eternal life, not man choosing eternal life.

Books have been written which attempt to outline where the logic breaks down in each of these questions so there's no way Tj3 or me or Galveston can quickly summarize what the answer is in a few short paragraphs (sorry Galveston but it's really not so simple...no disrespect). The reason being is that if you start to follow the logic of either line of questioning above, you run into snags that need to be contemplated.

Honestly, Tess, I don't know if I would even feel comfortable going into detail about it but if you have particular questions, perhaps we can talk through some. I subscribe to something called Divine Determinism which espouses both individual free will and divine sovereignty as compatible. I'm really not one to recommend books to people but I found this book by Jack Crabtree to be a very interesting read:

The Most Real Being: A Biblical and Philosophical Defense of Divine Determinism

I must make a disclaimer, though. This book is not an easy read but reading it is well worth the effort as it deals with some profound issues relating to our choices and God's control over his creation, etc.

Regards.

Thanks for the info. I know this is a sensitive topic and frankly Calvinism is NOT the Gospel.. the gospel is Whoesoever will may come. I am going to study this out until I am clear in my mind and I will see if I can locate the book you suggested.

You and Tom blow me away with your biblical knowledge are your ability to convey what you know. Tackling something like this and making someone like ME understand it, isn't easy. I believe that divine will and individual free will is compatible because the Bible teaches both. Will I ever understand it?. I don't know. But I wanted a better grasp of understanding... so I'm going to roll up my sleeves and tackle it best I can.

Wondergirl · Apr 19, 2009, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by classyT

Fred,

You bring up GREAT points...What do you think the Lord means to work out our faith in fear and trembling? I'd like everyones thoughts on that too.

It's wasn't the Lord who said that, but St. Paul who wrote it to the church at Philippi, Philippians 2:12-13, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Paul tells the church members that, while he is absent, to work out their own salvation in trembling and fear (v12), and clearly tells them in v13 just how they will accomplish that. It is God who works in you (and us) both to will and do [Greek, energeo]. Paul is urging the Philippians, even as they have listened to and obeyed his teaching of the word when he was with them, now that he is away from them, they should continue to read and be obedient to the word. They are on their own and must manage without Paul's leadership, but God will be there with them in their hearts "to will and to do." God is the active one within us; he is working in us so that we move forward with good works toward others.

classyT · Apr 19, 2009, 11:51 AM

The Apostle Paul wrote it... but ultimately it is God's thoughts and words.

But why with fear and trembling? I guess my point is that some people teach we can lose our salvation. I personally don't think so and I believe the word is pretty clear on the security of our salvation.

galveston · Apr 19, 2009, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

Gal,

That is what i heard a Pastor say recently. For me it was like he was saying we were predestined AFTER we became saved to be conformed to the image of Christ. That is a given!!!!! But what about these verses in the Gospel of John, where Jesus is talking ...

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me...

No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him...

...no man can come unto me except it were given unto him of my Father

I agree with you that we need to understand who is writing and who it is written to....but these verses were NOT directly written to the church. Jesus was talking to the Jews before there was any knowledge of the church.....Do you think they are relevant and tie into what the Apostle Paul said about predestination?

P.S. thanks for keeping it simple.

Jesus was telling Jewish people that The Father and The Son are not the same person, and that it is the Father that gives faith to hearers that they CAN accept the Son.

Companion verses are those saying that Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father, thus showing the perfect harmony between Father and Son. You can't have one without the other!

Wondergirl · Apr 19, 2009, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

But why with fear and trembling?

You wouldn't be a bit fearful if your trusted leader left your church, and you and your fellow members were left to your own devices? When our dear minister left our congregation to retire to Texas, we were scared to death and trembled at the thought of finding someone else who would be able to shepherd us as well as he had. Our only comfort, like that of the Philippians, was that God was in charge.

sndbay · Apr 19, 2009, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

But why with fear and trembling? I guess my point is that some people teach we can lose our salvation. I personally don't think so and I believe the word is pretty clear on the security of our salvation.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Tj3 · Apr 19, 2009, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

You wouldn't be a bit fearful if your trusted leader left your church, and you and your fellow members were left to your own devices? When our dear minister left our congregation to retire to Texas, we were scared to death and trembled at the thought of finding someone else who would be able to shepherd us as well as he had. Our only comfort, like that of the Philippians, was that God was in charge.

I am not quite sure what you are talking about here. Could you please clarify? Who left the church and what does that have to do with salvation?

Wondergirl · Apr 19, 2009, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

I am not quite sure what you are talking about here. Could you please clarify? Who left the church and what does that have to do with salvation?

Post #32.

Tj3 · Apr 19, 2009, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Post #32.

I cannot see that Paul's absence would impact how they work out their salvation. And why would Paul tell them to be in fear and trembling if he was gone? Wouldn't it be more likely that he would tell them to keep their eyes on the Lord if he had any concern about their stability in his absence? That would be more consistent with his other writings.

Wondergirl · Apr 19, 2009, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

I cannot see that Paul's absence would impact how they work out their salvation. And why would Paul tell them to be in fear and trembling if he was gone? Wouldn't it be more likely that he would tell them to keep their eyes on the Lord if he had any concern about their stability in his absence? That would be more consistent with his other writings.

Post #35.