[Needagameplan]

Four days ago I installed 8x10 ceramic tile using VERSABOND thin set using a 1/4 x 1/4 V trowel over wonder board (I lightly sponged the wonderboard prior to starting, I only applied enough VERSABOND to complete one row and completed each row with 20 minutes, clean water, new bucket and the remaining VERSABOND was still smooth at the end of the project. ) Thirty some hours later I was taking out the spacers and realized some of the tiles did not bond. I then knocked on all the tiles and found several more that did not bond. No pattern to the non-bonded tiles, the tiles have a grid pattern on the back and that same pattern was in the dry VERSABOND however very little if any VERSABOND was on the tiles? I am thinking about attempting to remove all tiles to be 100% sure they are actually bonded, however I already chipped one removing it.

Any suggestions as to what went south and how to resolved this, thanks in advance for any suggestions you may have.

[ballengerb1]

Was the versabond in powder form when you bought it? Sounds like your mortar wasn't wet enough to start with or was staring to cure before you got your tiles set. You should be able to put down your mortar, set a tile and then pull up a tile to find the mortar is sticking to at least 90% of the tile. I would not trust any of the tiles you have down right now.

[Needagameplan]

Was the versabond in powder form when you bought it? Sounds like your mortar wasn't wet enough to start with or was staring to cure before you got your tiles set. You should be able to put down your mortar, set a tile and then pull up a tile to find the mortar is sticking to at least 90% of the tile. I would not trust any of the tiles you have down right now.

Ballengerb1, Thanks for your quick response.

I did pull off one tile (middle of first row) when I started and it was fined, it was not easy to remove as the suction was very good. I did not check any others and that one seems to be OK, however would not bank on it. . I used one entire bag with six quarts of water as directed. The tiles have a lugged back, I was told that back buttering would not be required as long as I used the 1/4x1/4 V notched trowel, any thing smaller would require back buttering.

Should I have not troweled the entire row at once?

Should I have stilled backbuttered, I do see the entire lugged pattern in the versabond?

Can I apply more Versabond on top of what is on the wall or will I have to chip it off and start all over.

[ballengerb1]

I don't know how long your row is so Ican't really say. I nvere trowel on more thinset than I can lay in 5 minures. It seems like your thinset is just not creamy enough in some spots. If you remove a tile do not just add more thinset, scrap/chip off as much of the old as you can. I have read a few reviews on this product that were not good but I never used it personally. Back buttering is not needed with that trowel so it sounds like you did the right techniques just too long of a set time before you laid the tile.

[Needagameplan]

I don't know how long your row is so Ican't really say. I nvere trowel on more thinset than I can lay in 5 minures. It seems like your thinset is just not creamy enough in some spots. If you remove a tile do not just add more thinset, scrap/chip off as much of the old as you can. I have read a few reviews on this product that were not good but I never used it personally. Back buttering is not needed with that trowel so it sounds like you did the right techniques just too long of a set time before you layed the tile.

Ballengerb1, thanks, I am sorry to be a pain however if I may ask this , is this something that would be expected to happen if the thin set was applied 15 - 20 minutes prior to setting the tiles? That was the amount of time I was working with applied product, I only did this as it still felt fine to the touch or I would have remove it and applied fresh product. Also the area I stated at does not seem to be effected and I would not want to attempt to remove those tiles.

Would you agree on this plan

1. Remove all tiles that I can.
2. Remove most of product down to CB
3. Mix product as I did
4. Apply with same size trowel 1/4 x 1/4 V Notched Trowel (Tile 8x10 Lugged Back)
5. Only apply as much product to wall as I can set in within 5 minutes time
(again with no back buttering).
6. Tap tile while setting with palm of hand, place spacers.

[ballengerb1]

All looks good except #6. Why do you feel a new for tape? If you set your tile and insert a spacer it should be fine, your rows are horizontal and not verticle, right?

[Needagameplan]

All looks good except #6. Why do you feel a new for tape?? If you set your tile and insert a spacer it should be fine, your rows are horizontal and not verticle, right?

Yes rows are horizonal, I thought the tap with the palm ensured the lugs on the back of the tile became totally filled with the thin set. You just brought up another question, I tiled the entire wall at one time, eight tiles high. This is a three sided shower stall 34"x36"x34"

[ballengerb1]

When you set a tile its not just pushed in place, you apply firm pressure and then a little wiggle of your wrist to create the suction you found on some of your tiles. The tape is not needed but your shower is so small your probably moved a bit too quickly. I would set a horizontal row around 3 sides and then sip a cup of joe for a few minutes. Now come back and set the next row. Remember you will have about 200 lbs of material hanging on this wall but suction and gravity alone, it needs to be able to set a bit.

[Needagameplan]

When you set a tile its not just pushed in place, you apply firm pressure and then a little wiggle of your wrist to create the suction you found on some of your tiles. The tape is not needed but your shower is so small your probably moved a bit too quickly. I would set a horizontal row around 3 sides and then sip a cup of joe for a few minutes. Now come back and set the next row. Remember you will have about 200 lbs of material hanging on this wall but suction and gravity alone, it needs to be able to set a bit.

That is what I did, one row gathered tiles for next row, beer, smoke, applied product set tiles.

With out breaking tiles how do I tell if they are bonded or not. I been using the flat blade of the trowel and a little pressure popping them off. I just hit one the does not want to move and I don't want to break it off, can I assume it is OK and just work around it or am I breaking bondage just attempting to remove them and they all should be removed.

[ballengerb1]

Usually we just test a few tiles to see if we are getting that 90% contact and then assume the rest will be the same. It is not like you will be walking on these tiles and the grout will add to the strength. I recommend a 2 part epoxy grout or at least a stainproof one.

[Needagameplan]

Usually we just test a few tiles to see if we are getting that 90% contact and then assume the rest will be the same. It is not like you will be walking on these tiles and the grout will add to the strength. I recommend a 2 part epoxy grout or at least a stainproof one.

Ballengerb1, I just removed 60% of the tiles and broke two and found some strange happenings.

It actually looks as if the Product is not totally dry(4 days later), I am using a white mix, and the area of the body of the tile is not as white as the area of the tile edges. 90% of the tiles removed have nothing at all stuck to the back, which will make it easer to reset them. The ones with product on the back (like the one I tested) the CB has nothing on it.

Since I am having such a bad experience with this I am now thinking of using a different product. Should I just go with old fashion thin set or would you suggest something else.

This is not the first time I have tiled, however when things go so wrong one starts to question everything.

[ballengerb1]

Thinset is not good for cement board, wonderboard or Hardiebacker. I use a premixed modified thinset from home centers like HD , Lowe's and Menards. A pro would likely say the pre-mix is not the way to go but it has not failed me. Your versabond does not dry/cure rapidly, most bonds don't. I am not surprised you found uncured mastic near the center but it should have stuck better to the tile. Try Lacrete found at most home centers.

[JazMan]

Holy cow, where to start? :eek:

Next time please do not mix an entire bag of thinset especially when you are installing tiles on a wall. How did you mix the entire bag anyway?

You also used the wrong trowel. You said 1/4x1/4 V. If the backs were flat you should have used 1/4x1/4 square, NOT V. You said the tiles' backs are lugged. Lugged may have required 1/4x3/8x1/4. and/or back-buttering too? I suspect lack of enough thinset is the main reason you got yourself in trouble.

Spreading only one row at a time is a waste of time, (not enough area), but you need to work at your own speed, so OK. By your description I gather the thinset had not yet skinned over when you set the tiles.

You might be better off removing everything and start fresh from the backer board. If you replace just some here and there, the thickness may be different from the ones not removed and you will have lippage. As I said you used the wrong trowel.

Please do NOT pay attention to what ballenger just advised about not using thin set mortar from a bag and use the pre-mixed stuff. :eek: DO NOT do that, unless you are tiling only a backsplash or other vertical dry spot.


Jaz

[Needagameplan]

Holy cow, where to start? :eek:

Next time please do not mix an entire bag of thinset especially when you are installing tiles on a wall. How did you mix the entire bag anyway?

You also used the wrong trowel. You said 1/4x1/4 V. If the backs were flat you should have used 1/4x1/4 square, NOT V. You said the tiles' backs are lugged. Lugged may have required 1/4x3/8x1/4. and/or back-buttering too? I suspect lack of enough thinset is the main reason you got yourself in trouble.

Spreading only one row at a time is a waste of time, (not enough area), but you need to work at your own speed, so OK. By your description I gather the thinset had not yet skinned over when you set the tiles.

You might be better off removing everything and start fresh from the backer board. If you replace just some here and there, the thickness may be different from the ones not removed and you will have lippage. As I said you used the wrong trowel.

Please do NOT pay attention to what ballenger just advised about not using thin set mortar from a bag and use the pre-mixed stuff. :eek: DO NOT do that, unless you are tiling only a backsplash or other vertical dry spot.


Jaz

Jaz

You indicate that I should have used a larger trowel 1/4 x 3/8 x 1/4 and butter the back of the tile. Even if I seen the lug pattern on the thin set you still think my product was to thin since I only used the 1/4 x 1/4 V notched trowel?

[JazMan]

First of all the 1/4" V is never used for installing ceramic tiles with a deep texture, maybe mosaics? Just doesn't leave enough adhesive. I'd like to know who told you or where you read that.

When properly done, you need a min. of 3/32" thickness of the thinset for a proper bond, anything thinner will not cure properly. This means the adhesive will transfer to the tile and contact a min. of 85%. Even more contact is desirable in wet or outdoor applications.

Had you applied enough thinset and set the tiles before it skinned over, you'd have had a good bond. If however you worked too slow, you'd have the impression of the tiles on the adhesive, but little or no transfer.

Back to your tiles. You say they have lugs. Are they like buttons? We don't see tiles like that much these days.

Jaz

[Needagameplan]

First of all the 1/4" V is never used for installing ceramic tiles with a deep texture, maybe mosaics? Just doesn't leave enough adhesive. I'd like to know who told you or where you read that.

When properly done, you need a min. of 3/32" thickness of the thinset for a proper bond, anything thinner will not cure properly. This means the adhesive will transfer to the tile and contact a min. of 85%. Even more contact is desirable in wet or outdoor applications.

Had you applied enough thinset and set the tiles before it skinned over, you'd have had a good bond. If however you worked too slow, you'd have the impression of the tiles on the adhesive, but little or no transfer.

Back to your tiles. You say they have lugs. Are they like buttons? We don't see tiles like that much these days.

Jaz

Jaz

I stand corrected on my use of the term "Lugs" the tiles are not considered lugged.
They look like a waffle on the back raised maybe a 64th of an inch and are about 3/8" squares. I spoke with the thinset manufacture and they feel the issue may be due to uncleaned tiles at the tile manufacturing location. It was suggested that I don't attempt to remove any more tiles unless they are making a tapping sound when knocking on them, as even though I am able to pop them off with a little effort that is normal however after ten days or so I would need a jack hammer.

They also suggested that I need to scrape off the current Versabond product and clean the wall very good. Prime the walls with a Level Quick Primer two hour prior to setting tiles and use their Flex Bond product using a 1/4 x 3/8 x 14 trowel.

[JazMan]

If there was a release powder on the backs of the tiles, I would guess you would have noticed it?:confused:

I do not understand their suggesting you prime the wall after removing Versabond, then using Flexbond. I think the person you spoke with was there to empty the waste basket.:rolleyes:

Gee, it's hard to find good help these days!:D

Jaz

[Needagameplan]

If there was a release powder on the backs of the tiles, I would guess you would have noticed it?:confused:

I do not understand their suggesting you prime the wall after removing Versabond, then using Flexbond. I think the person you spoke with was there to empty the waste basket.:rolleyes:

Gee, it's hard to find good help these days!:D

Jaz

Jazz

Yes the tiles appeared to be clean and free of any contaminants.

What they have indicated is that the Versabond would have sealed the wonderboard and if I did not prime with the quick level primer I would with out question experience flashing between the new thinset and the wonderboard and once again be in the same boat.

I was unable to remove the Versabond without days and days of effort from the wonderboard so I have started removing everything down to the studs.

I will replace the vapor barrier and wonderboard and start fresh using the Flexbond product (since HD provided it free of charge) with the recommended 1/4 x 3/8 x 1/4 trowel. Just in case I will also clean the back of every tile with water and sponge just so that am 100% sure they are clean of any contaminants. Again the tiles seemed to be clean the first time however I will leave nothing to chance this time as this issue has set the project back a week and countless labor hours.

Thanks again for you valued feedback, I will update as the project continues.