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tonyrey · Mar 29, 2009, 03:31 PM

A possible definition of justice is "getting what we deserve". But what do we deserve?
Do we deserve anything? We are thought to have a right to life but what have we done to deserve to live? Nothing! Do we deserve to die? No! What have we done to receive the death penalty? Nothing! So it would seem that "getting what we deserve" is an inadequate definition of justice. What would you suggest?

ROLCAM · Mar 29, 2009, 03:45 PM

justice,

1. just conduct; fair dealing.
Ex. Judges should have a sense of justice. Justice is the principle and the process by which each man is assured the things that belong to him (Russell Kirk).

2. the condition of being just; fairness; rightness; correctness.
Ex. The justice of a claim, to uphold the justice of our cause.

3. a well-founded reason; rightfulness; lawfulness.
Ex. They complained with justice of the bad treatment they had received.

4. just treatment; deserved reward or punishment.
Ex. Justice consists in giving every man what he deserves. Revenge is a kind of wild justice (Francis Bacon).

5. the administration of law; trial and judgment by process of law.
Ex. A court of justice.

6. the exercise of power and authority to maintain what is just and right.

7. = judge. The Supreme Court of the United States consists of nine justices.

8. = justice of the peace. Expr. Bring to justice, to punish legally for a crime.
Ex. The burglar was brought to justice. Expr. Do justice to,

a. to treat fairly.
Ex. These one-acters, imported from London, are full of bright, quirky lines and notions, but the production doesn't do the plays justice (New Yorker).

b. to see the good points of; show proper appreciation for.
Ex. The crowd's applause did justice to the acrobat's performance.. . nor dare he do less than justice to the feast prepared for him (Peter Fleming).

expr. Do oneself justice, to do as well as one really can do.
Ex. He did not do himself justice on the test. He was too diffident to do justice to himself (Jane Austen).

Fr_Chuck · Mar 29, 2009, 04:01 PM

Why does a person not deserve to die for certain offenses??

ROLCAM · Mar 29, 2009, 04:31 PM

Fr_Chuck,

What are the certain offences you have in mind ?

Justice is a moral standard that applies to all human conduct. The laws enforced by government have usually had a strong moral element, and so justice has generally been one of the law's guiding principles. But governments can, and sometimes do, enforce laws that many people believe to be unjust. If this belief becomes widespread, people may lose respect for the law and may even disobey it. However, in democratic societies, the law itself provides ways to amend or abolish these unjust laws.

tonyrey · Mar 30, 2009, 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

why does a person not deserve to die for certain offenses ???

The death penalty meted out by human beings is controversial but the issue at stake here is what we done to deserve to live and what we have we done to deserve to die?
:)

tonyrey · Mar 30, 2009, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by ROLCAM

justice,

1. just conduct; fair dealing.
Ex. Judges should have a sense of justice. Justice is the principle and the process by which each man is assured the things that belong to him (Russell Kirk).

These definitions do not deal with the question of what we deserve :) For example, life "belongs" to us and is taken away from us but is it relevant to what we deserve?

tonyrey · Mar 30, 2009, 01:56 AM

Originally Posted by ROLCAM

Fr_Chuck,

Justice is a moral standard that applies to all human conduct.

I agree with you but is morality restricted to human beings? In other words, are we entitled to apply that standard to reality as a whole? For example, does it make sense to describe life and death as just or unjust? Or good or evil?

Clough · Mar 30, 2009, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by ROLCAM

Fr_Chuck,

What are the certain offences you have in mind ?

Justice is a moral standard that applies to all human conduct. The laws enforced by government have usually had a strong moral element, and so justice has generally been one of the law's guiding principles. But governments can, and sometimes do, enforce laws that many people believe to be unjust. If this belief becomes widespread, people may lose respect for the law and may even disobey it. However, in democratic societies, the law itself provides ways to amend or abolish these unjust laws.

ROLCAM,

The vast majority of this post are not your words, and you know it! Please stop simply copying and pasting on this site! I don't really know what else to say to you about your plagiarism, since you've already been warned a number of times here.

If you want to build credibility for yourself and be known for placing good, unique and helpful things on the Internet, then I would suggest doing your own thinking when coming up with answers. And, when you do choose to quote another source, that you at least give some credit to the author, if known, and if not, at least the source of your information.

Sorry about that, tonyrey! ROLCAM seems to enjoy just having a "presence" on the Internet, but is one that in a majority of the posts from what I've seen on a number of sites, lacks substance and credibility as being his own material.

Thanks!

ROLCAM · Mar 30, 2009, 02:09 AM

tonyrey,

1) My position is clear.
I am anti the death penalty! FULL STOP.
2) I take the position that "life does not belong to us". We do not own a single hair in our body if it was not given to us by the MAKER.
3) YES, morality is restricted to human beings.

ROLCAM · Mar 30, 2009, 02:13 AM

Clough,

You should deal with the subject at hand,
How much clearer do you expect me to be.
May be you do not agree with my answers
To tonyrey.

Clough · Mar 30, 2009, 02:21 AM

Hi, tonyrey!

I think that what is deserved is also a matter of definition based upon what people think who are the ones who are meting out what they perceive to be justice.

So, what is considered to be "just" or "justice" will depend on an opinion of an individual or also what a society has decided as a whole and agreed upon as to what might be considered to be "justice".

Thanks!

Clough · Mar 30, 2009, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by ROLCAM

tonyrey,

3) YES, morality is restricted to human beings.

Even the beasts of the wild could be considered to have their own type of morality by the way that they treat each other. For instance, look how dogs in a pack or multiple canines in a home will treat each other? They can be fair, gentle or the opposite.

What is "moral" depends on the views of the "society" as a whole or maybe as what is the independent definition for such as rendered and believed by an individual.

Thanks!

Clough · Mar 30, 2009, 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by ROLCAM

tonyrey,
2) I take the position that "life does not belong to us". We do not own a single hair in our body if it was not given to us by the MAKER.

But what if someone or a society as a whole doesn't believe in some sort of divine maker? I do believe in a divine maker, but wonder what position you would take and how you would explain a society that didn't believe in a divine maker would justify having or not having the death penalty if they didn't believe in some sort of divine precedence or laws governing the way that they acted?

I'm sure that there are individuals and small societies as a whole who don't believe that what they do is governed by any sort of divine authority.

I also think that philosophizing about an issue isn't so much about taking a position as about thinking about the many possible positions that there might be.

That's my opinion...

Thanks!

tonyrey · Mar 30, 2009, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Clough

I also think that philosophizing about an issue isn't so much about taking a position as about thinking about the many possible positions that there might be.

Philosophizing about an issue does entail thinking about the many possible positions there might be but it also entails selecting the best explanation :) Belief in justice, for example, is inconsistent with the theory that everything is derived from atomic particles.

excon · Mar 30, 2009, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by tonyrey

But what do we deserve?

Hello tony:

Nothing!

If you think we deserve something, then you decend into all the arguments that came before on this thread. Justice is a man made idea.

Now, man made justice ain't bad, if you get it. But, most don't, and there ain't nothing else. There's those, of course, who think we get justice after we're dead. Then there's those of us who think that's too late.

excon

tonyrey · Mar 30, 2009, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello tony:

Nothing!

If you think we deserve something, then you decend into all the arguements that came before on this thread. Justice is a man made idea.

Now, man made justice ain't bad, if you get it. But, most don't, and there ain't nothing else. There's those, of course, who think we get justice after we're dead. Then there's those of us who think that's too late.

excon

Hi excon

Sorry to be a wet blanket but:

If we deserve nothing we 're not entitled to complain about anything :p

0rphan · Apr 16, 2009, 02:15 PM

Out of life from a very young age you get what you deserve, whether it's a sweet for being a good boy/ girl or the job you've work hard for at.. say university... or a wrong you've committed against your fellow man.

The choice is ours...

tonyrey · Apr 16, 2009, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by 0rphan

Out of life from a very young age you get what you deserve, wether it's a sweet for being a good boy/ girl or the job you've work hard for at ..say university...... or a wrong you've committed against your fellow man.

The choice is ours...

I agree with you but we also get what we don't deserve! Both good and evil come our way because there is an element of chance in what happens. As Pascal wrote:

If Cleopatra's nose had been shorter, the whole face of the world would have been changed.

redhed35 · Apr 16, 2009, 02:55 PM

The good guys.
'just' men have been martyred injustly.

Throughout history men and women have died for a cause,freedom being the most common.
'just' wars. Wars that now with hindsight seem pointless and a waste of life.Yet we revere the 'just'.The people who have separated themselves from the herd to stand up for a cause..

Does being 'just' come from the essence of a human or is it learned?

The bad guys.
The 'unjust' who came into power and persuaded nations that a person should die because of the colour of their skin or belief,and were dracone in there approach.
But they believed they were "just".

The ugly.
The stoic that believe 'just' and 'unjust' go hand in hand.whatever will be will be,accept the general concenus of whatever the trend happens to be in the time they live in.
-----------------------
We were all born with an instinct to survive,we were unaware of our being and what may happen.the instinct to survive is the strongest in an infant.
How life treats us does not dictate if we are just or unjust,many history icons are proof of this. (nature or nurture.. in another thread perhaps).

There is comfort is a believing in a 'just God' we can only strive to be 'Just',we are after all only human.

tonyrey · Apr 16, 2009, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by redhed35

how life treats us does not dictate if we are just or unjust,many history icons are proof of this. (nature or nurture..in another thread perhaps).

there is comfort is a believing in a 'just God' we can only strive to be 'Just',we are after all only human.

Whether it is comforting or not has no bearing on whether the belief is true :)

To say we can strive to be just implies that we can sometimes succeed. Otherwise there would be no point in striving!

It also implies that striving to be just is worthwhile, i.e. justice is not simply a matter of opinion but an objective fact. Even if everybody believed it is right to kill others to amuse ourselves it would still be wrong :eek: