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johnneedshelp · Mar 11, 2009, 08:32 AM

I am finishing my basement. I am to the point where I need to start doing the electrical work. I was wondering if anyone could give me insight as to what I should do with the existing wiring. I have two switches, one at the top of the stairs and one at the bottom, that control two lights in the stairwell, and four lights in the basement. I need to keep the lights in the stairwell but I don't want the lights in the basement to stay on that switch. The lights in the dining room are on the same circuit. Does anyone have any pointers as to how I should start this part of the project out?

homedoctor · Mar 11, 2009, 08:47 AM

The switches get power first, then power goes from light to light. If you remove the stairwell light closest to the basement lights it will likely have a wire in and a wire out. After shutting off the power to the circuit, remove the wire that feeds the basement lights from the stairwell light and that will break 'em apart. That 'removed' wire can then be placed into a switch box to control the basement lights. You will need to bring power to the new switch, of course.

sarnian · Mar 11, 2009, 08:52 AM

Hello John

Wire the switches for the stairways as 'hotel' (3-way) switch. That way you can switch on/off the starways lights from either side. Link to 'hotel' (3-way) wire drawing.

As towards the rest of the wiring : wire each room from the center light point in the ceiling. You power that point from the control panel (3 wires : black (hot), white (neutral, green (earth).
Install (hot) wires from there to all switches, neutral to all lights, a connection wire from switch to it's light point (red), and hot, neutral, and earth to all power sockets in that room.

In case of a power break due to short or overload you should make sure that some light remains available in the basement area. So keep the power to the 'hotel' (three-way) stairways light system on a different group than the wiring of the rest of the basement.

A more 'professional' wiring would be to wire all powersockets in the basement to another group in the control panel.

Success!

johnneedshelp · Mar 11, 2009, 09:24 AM

OK, I understand that. Thanks.
Now once I remove the lights in the basement I need to move the location from where the switch is right now, but the wire does not reach. Can I splice a length of wire to make it longer or do I need to re-run a new wire from the first light?

homedoctor · Mar 11, 2009, 09:36 AM

Re-run. A splice must be in a junction box, soit's easier and cleaner to run a fresh wire.

homedoctor · Mar 11, 2009, 09:43 AM

John, do you have romex or knob-&-tube wiring in your house?

donf · Mar 11, 2009, 09:48 AM

John,

The term, "Hotel" is an Eurasian term it does not apply here in the U.S.A. Also, from the little research I did, all Hotel switches made were described by their manufacturers as "Hotel Use Only" which precludes their use in a residence.

In the U.S.A we use the term, "Three way switch."

Also, before we can actually help you, we need to know where the power supply for the lights is located.

Does the circuit come from the panel box to a central point in the basement and then you split up the circuit? Does it start in the panel travel to to the dining room and then to the basement stairwell and then into the basement?

Are we dealing with a 15 amp or 20 amp circuit?

sarnian · Mar 11, 2009, 09:56 AM

Hello johnneedshelp

Do not just splice and reconnect pieces of wire. Always run a new wire from wiring box to wiring box.

sarnian · Mar 11, 2009, 09:59 AM

Hello donf

You seem to have a 'hotel' (3-way) switch phoby.
I used both names to prevent confusion. I even provided a wiring drawing.
We do not know where Johnneedhelp lives, and that is hardly relevant at the moment.

Note : the wiring colour details were based on the American colour code.

johnneedshelp · Mar 11, 2009, 10:14 AM

The home is 1 year old so it has the romex wiring, I am in the US so I would refer to the switch as a three way. I also need to wire a bathroom. Can the outlet and the exhaust fan, heatlamp and regular ceiling light all be on one bathroom circuit?

donf · Mar 11, 2009, 10:31 AM

Sarian,

I do not have a phobia about "Hotel Switches."

The problem I have with the term Hotel Switch is not just the term. Your are telling DIY folks to use a device that is listed by the manufacturers as "Hotel Use Only".

That says to me that the switches can only be used in the commercial venue. Residences are not within that envelope.

If I use the term three way, it means that the switch can be connected at three points. The switch is not restricted to commercial venues.

sarnian · Mar 11, 2009, 08:20 PM

Sorry donf, but you surely have a phobia about this : denying won't help you.

I CLEARLY mentioned both terms used all over the world : 'Hotel' (3 way) switch.
So there is no way anyone can misunderstand what I posted.
Besides that, I included a drawing on how to wire it.

The only one who has a problem with the way I name this type of switching is you.
You may use the term 'three way switch' : fine with me.
Just stop posting your petty remarks on others providing both the term used by you, and the term used elsewhere on this world.
Better get used to my way of posting, as you will see a lot of that in the future.

===

Re. homedoctor's rating comment : you fell for the wild comments by donf. 'Hotel switch' is in many European countries the normal popular do-it-yourself term for exactly the same as what in the US is called a 3 way switch.
Note that '3 way switch' on itself is an incorrect term as there is no three way switching involved at all. It is a 2 way switch (switch-over). So if we talk about confusion, the term '3 way switch' is even more incorrect than 'hotel' switch.
Note also that the popular term 'hotel' switch is not some commercial-grade term, has nothing to do with device ratings, nor with hotels. It is just a term that slipped in many years ago. Just as in the US the use of '3 way' switch slipped in.

As a service to persons who ask questions that involve switch-over circuitry I combine both terms, as the world is bigger than only the US. Many US posters (like donf) seem to think that the world has to keep to US terminology. That surely is incorrect.

For all these reasons I will keep using the term 'hotel' (3 way) switch.

sarnian · Mar 11, 2009, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by johnneedshelp

... Can the outlet and the exhaust fan, heatlamp and regular ceiling light all be on one bathroom circuit?

It is not about if it can be done, but if it is smart to do, John.
Is there anything else also on that same circuit/group? Remember that a heater system can draw up to 2 KWatt.

How big is that basement of yours? Or is this bathroom elsewhere in the house?

johnneedshelp · Mar 11, 2009, 09:36 PM

I am wiring an almost finished basement and I was wondering if building codes or anything else dictates that a bathroom should have its own dedicated 20 amp circuit for outlets by the sink. The reason I ask is because I am adding a bar sink right outside the bathroom wall and I would like to use the same circuit for the Microwave, small fridge and counter top outlets.

I have six spaces left in my panel. The room I am finishing is approx. 27 X 27. Included in that is the bathroom. I intend to add a baseboard heater, which will require two spaces in the panel. After the heater is put in there will be four spaces left. Is this enough breakers to supply the 'living' room and the bathroom?

creahands · Mar 11, 2009, 11:00 PM

Hi John

Heat lamp should be on own circuit. The outlet should be GFIC. Any fixtures after the outlet will be controlled by GFI and go off if there is a problem at outlet. Wire outlet at end of run if u don't want the lights controlled by GFI.

Good luck

Chuck

stanfortyman · Mar 12, 2009, 04:44 AM

You cannot combine a bath receptacle circuit with other rooms.

Without typing out all the code, no, you cannot share the bath with the bar receptacles.

Sure, four circuits should be fine for what you are adding.

homedoctor · Mar 12, 2009, 06:38 AM

If you're putting an additional light above the shower area it should be both fully enclosed (rated for over showers) and GFCI controlled (light switch after the plug), nothing else should need that protection.

And creahands is also right about a heat lamp using it's own circuit.

johnneedshelp · Mar 12, 2009, 06:57 AM

OK, that is good to know about the bathroom. So the two outlets above the sink need have their own 20 amp dedicated circuit?
Does the bar area then also needs its own circuit? Since it will have a sink in it as well?

stanfortyman · Mar 12, 2009, 08:46 AM

Code would not dictate a dedicated circuit to the bar area, but considering what you will be running it sure is a good idea. ;)

stanfortyman · Mar 12, 2009, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by homedoctor

If you're putting an additional light above the shower area it should be both fully enclosed (rated for over showers) and GFCI controlled (light switch after the plug), nothing else should need that protection.

Just for code clarification, the a recessed light over a shower only needs to be full sealed if it is subject to shower spray. Needless to say, anyone later can install a handheld shower head so it is usually a good idea.

Also, shower lights do not require GFI protection, unless the manufacturer specifies it. I have yet to see a manufacturer that required GFI protection for a light. They typically do for fans over tubs or showers.

Also, also, heat lamps typically do not require a dedicated circuit. Heat lamp bulbs are 250 watts, so even two can easily and safely be put on a lighting circuit. I would not however put them on the bath receptacle circuit.
A heat fan unit almost always does require a dedicated circuit as they are typically 1200-1500 watts.