[Tj3]

Tj3,
You have it your way and I'll have it mine, Thank you.
Fred.

I'll have it God's way.

[arcura]

Tj3,
So will I.
God IS the Judge. It is He who decides who goes where, Heaven, Purgatory or Hell.
That is why I do not trust your judgment.
Fred

[classyT]

Guys,

My problem with the idea the Lord will take anyone to heaven other than those that profess his name is simply this... That is how he INSTITUTED it. He suffered and died for us. These are HIS rules and HIS plan of salvation. If he places His word above his name... he isn't going to go back on it. His word is above his name... I mean it doesn't get more IMPORTANT than that. WOW.

Alty,

I judge no one. I only go by what the word says. I believe that if someone has heard the gospel and the way to receive Christ and rejects it and decides they have there OWN way to heaven... that they cannot be saved. I don't believe this because I think I am better ( because I KNOW I am not) I don't believe this because I am not tolerant of other beliefs... I only believe this because that is what the Bible teaches. I have no other authority.

Fred,
The Bible incidentally does not teach that the Lord will accept anyone other than those names that are written in the Lambs book of life. If you don't know the lamb, or reject the lamb how in THE WORLD is your name going to be there? The Bible does teach that the Lord does NOT go against HIS word. He can't say one thing and then do another. He can't. Am I wrong?

[450donn]

Tj3,
So will I.
God IS the Judge. It is He who decides who goes where, Heaven, Purgatory or Hell.
That is why I do not trust your judgment.
Fred

Fred, you have this sooo wrong.
God gave us free will to make choices. He did NOT make us a bunch of mind numbed robots in lock step with HIM. Because we have free choice if we choose to reject Him, then we make the decision and our name is not written in the book of life. What is so hard about that to understand? Heck, even Adam and Eve had a choice. They choose to accept what the serpent was telling them and rejected God's words about not eating of the fruit of the tree of life.

[classyT]

Don,

I will eat my hat if fred concedes to you... lol course I'd eat anything right now... I'm on Jenny craig and I'm STARVING.. ok I'm off thread. See what lack of food does to me?

[450donn]

LOL:D I have a couple of straw hats for you LOL

[gromitt82]

Classy T

I think from your own statements that your are facing a person (never mind her sex) that is in front of a great confusion. She unquestionably needs all the help and advise you can provide her with, although this may represent -most certainly it will- a great effort on your side.

However, our mission as Christians is also to exert as apostles before those who somehow are not yet following the right path. Furthermore, we are to do it out of our sincere desire to love our neighbor, as the 11th Commandment instruct us to do.

[classyT]

Gromm,

I agree. Unfortunately she gets UPSET and freaks if someone disagrees with her. She actually told my son that he had been indoctrinated when he disagreed and discussed the matter with her. I would imagine at this point, prayer is what is needed. Thanks for your thoughts.

[arcura]

classyT,
If she gets unset when someone disagrees with here then it becomes necessary, if disagreement is needed, to do it gently, not quickly or sharply.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[gromitt82]

Gromm,

i agree. Unfortunately she gets UPSET and freaks if someone disagrees with her. She actually told my son that he had been indoctrinated when he disagreed and discussed the matter with her. I would imagine at this point, prayer is what is needed. Thanks for your thoughts.

I would agree with Arcura's advice. A lot of patience, tolerance and generosity are needed in such difficult cases.

It is even more difficult to convert and atheist and there are some examples that this can be done too.:):)

[classyT]

classyT,
If she gets unset when someone disagrees with here then it becomes necessary, if disagreement is needed, to do it gently, not quickly or sharply.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Me? Quick and sharp? LOL LOL... naah not me. I'm as gentle as a dove. Hee hee

Actually I avoid the subject. I am passionate about this and it shows. But... When it comes up I actually have to pray for help. I don't feel this way with other people but she KNOWS and professed the truth at one time.. so she irks my FLESH more. But alas.. I know it is wrong. :(

[Triund]

Adam,

you are right! I find this very sad indeed and yet wasn't it the Lord himself who said in that day people will stand before him saying Lord, Lord haven't i done this and that in your name but he replies...I NEVER knew you. Just because someone proclaims to KNOW him...doesn't make it so. It saddens me and frightens me..but again doesn't the Bible teach not to lay hands suddenly on any man? I guess there is a reason for that. Thanks for your insite.

I would add to this that we are not saved by our good deeds, but by HIS grace. Who would had thought that a thief would be saved at cross just before death? Who would had thought that Saul would become Paul? I would say that we all should pray for her to come back to light and be near Lord Jesus. Prayer is one thing we can do and leave the rest in HIS hands. Recently, I watched Jim Cymbala's sermon "My House Shall Be Called A House Of Prayer" online. This sermon reinforced my faith in the power of prayer.

[arcura]

Triund,
Yes prayer can be powerful and should be used.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[De Maria]

Ok, I already know that we can not truly understand someone elses heart and whether someone is saved or not. Having said that would YOU ( i'm speaking to Christians) own a person like this as a sister in the Lord?.....

I know a woman who was involved for YEARS with the REORGAINIZED church of latter day saints..they have different beliefs from LDS. Anyway her mother who was a Christian prayed for her for and eventually she left that denomination and proclaimed Christ as her personal savior. Her husband was NOT saved and a lot of her family still stayed with that church. She began to grow in her walk with Christ as far as I could tell and was interested in learning so she attended a bible church. Within the last few years I noticed her saying odd things that were not biblical. She now seems to have embraced Universalism. She has decided that it isn't NOT necessary to understand and believe the gospel now because all will be saved in the end. This is NOT biblical....one verse she has used over and over is the one that states Every knee will bow and every knee will confess. I have explained to her that it doesn't EVER say that every knee WILL WANT TO BOW...they will HAVE to. So, my question is...would you own her as a sister in the Lord a little confused.... Or a confused woman in need of real salvation. i don't know what to think?

Good question. I agree with those who have said we should not judge her harshly. It is God who is our judge.

Also, I think this parable is pertinent to the question:

Matthew 21
28 But what think you? A certain man had two sons; and coming to the first, he said: Son, go work today in my vineyard. 29 And he answering, said: I will not. But afterwards, being moved with repentance, he went. 30 And coming to the other, he said in like manner. And he answering, said: I go, Sir; and he went not.

31 Which of the two did the father's will? They say to him: The first. Jesus saith to them: Amen I say to you, that the publicans and the harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you.

As I apply it to this question then, all people are children of God.

Those of us who are Christian have said yes to God. Some of us have followed our yes with our works and have therefore done the will of God and can hope for an eternal reward.

Some of us Christians have said yes to God but have not followed that yes with our works and have therefore nullified that verbal contract with our actions. God will judge.

Some people, and I think this woman falls in this category, have, in good faith said yes to God but have not understood what is required to keep that covenant. If in their actions they ratify their yes to God, then they will be like the son who said no to the Father yet did the Father's will.

If with their actions they nullify that contract, then may God have mercy on them.

Does this apply to the question?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[arcura]

grant09,
Everyone is going to be saved??
I think not according to what Jesus and the bible says.
Fred

[gromitt82]

I would add to this that we are not saved by our good deeds, but by HIS grace. Who would had thought that a thief would be saved at cross just before death? Who would had thought that Saul would become Paul? I would say that we all should pray for her to come back to light and be near Lord Jesus. Prayer is one thing we can do and leave the rest in HIS hands. Recently, I watched Jim Cymbala's sermon "My House Shall Be Called A House Of Prayer" online. This sermon reinforced my faith in the power of prayer.

I can but totally agree with your remarks. The power of prayer is enormous, as it is the power of Faith. The problem is, in my opinion, that more often than not our prayers are not prayed with enough fath;);)

[classyT]

Really?

Rev 20:15
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
NKJV

Perfect come back verse. I would LOVE to know what the Universalist do with that verse? AND... what verses they use to defend their position. I can't think of ONE!

[arcura]

classyT
Neither can I.
Fred

[Tj3]

Perfect come back verse. I would LOVE to know what the Universalist do with that verse? AND...what verses they use to defend their position. I can't think of ONE!

That and a number of other passages. I had a series of debates with a very knowledgeable universalist a few years back, and these debates continued over a period of weeks. At the end of the debates, he conceded that there is nothing in scripture that supports universalism. But he did not change his theology.

[arcura]

Tj3,
"He did not change his theology"
So it goes with a lot of people.
But some do change after a time.
Fred