[JoeT777]

Arcura originally asked “What Scripture verse show that Peter was the leader?”

As I understand Acura's question, it was meant to be fact finding in nature. The topic was closed before many of the verses could be discussed.

Part 2 of this question asked, “Can we find other similar authoritative evidence in antiquity of Peter's leadership outside of scripture?” This too was closed before we could discuss many of the early Church leader's affirmations of Peter. But, all is not lost.

With this question I'd like to continue the endeavors in parts 1 and 2 but to extend the topic to include secular writers of that period. Recapping, the questions are:

Part 1: What Scripture verse show that Peter was the leader?

Part 2: Can we find other similar authoritative evidence in antiquity of Peter's leadership outside of scripture?

Part 3: Can we find authoritative evidence in the various societies of antiquity showing Peter's leadership post scripture?

JoeT

[JoeT777]

For those of you without a separate source of early church writers or doctors you may want to consider the source below. I’ve found that this site seems to contain the most exhaustive list of orthodox Christian writers. If you don’t want to use this source, there are several other similar sources on the web – simply do a web search. For example there are several English versions of Titus Flavius Josephus’, The Jewish War and Antiquities of the Jews on the web (circa 75 and 94 respectively). But, most of you probably already know this.

CHURCH FATHERS: Home

Also, I’d like to invite you to contribute to the thread “History of the Church,” a topic less constrained.

JoeT

[JoeT777]

Joe, This discussion has been closed down twice. My personal opinion is that most of what was last said, and showed is a one sided fallacy. (nothing show in the spirit of love)

Of course there is disagreement as to the previous posts being a “fallacy.” There are a great many who disagree with premise that Peter was not the leader of the 12, I’m just one of those. But even still, your point of view is still respected. But, in the fare exchange of ideas, you must allow Catholics the right to disagree.

More important, the original thread was intended by Acura to be one sided in that he was simply looking for responses to a particular question, which happened to be Catholic. Re-starting the thread was a debt I felt I owed Acura for participating in the bantering back and forth that I suspect was the cause for the thread being closed. Nothing more.

I can't find it in my heart to believe anyone other then Christ is the head, the guiding light, and the Rock of our Salvation.

Your passions and love for Christ blind you to the fact that Catholics too believe Christ is the head, the guiding light and the rock of Salvation. In fact we love him so much we consume him – the real presence of Christ – a Christ who promised to be with us through the ages.

Should anyone elect to follow someone other then Christ, it is their own choice.

The entire focus of Catholicism is Christ centered.

Scripture is decriptive with clear representation as to who Peter was and who he followed.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

The scripture goes on to note that in according to Christ's divine power that gave us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given to us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these we might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Concluding Christ was and is the Rock of our Salvation.

Yes, scripture is deceptively clear, provided you’re a historian, linguist speaking and writing Greek, Latin, and Hebrew, fluent in any of the natural sciences, and a theologian. But, the RC has held the same understanding the same faith for 2,000 years. And again, that faith is Christ-centrist.

[arcura]

sndbay,
As I have said several times, The Catholic Church does believe that Jesus Christ IS the head of the Church.
But also that Jesus appointed Peter to be the leader of Christ's 12 apostles who were the first bishops of The Church.
You may disagree with that but it is what is believed by Roman Catholics and several other denominations.
The fact is that both the Holy Bible and actual history tell is that.
I'm very interested in knowing all the evidence of that.
So far quit a bit has been brought for here and I'm hoping more will be so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Fr_Chuck]

Without looking the chapter and verse up, we have the issue where Paul went to Peter to get permission for his conversion of the Gentiles.

And the simple fact that from a earthly level, there had to be some organization to allow things to work.

Even today every group has some level of leaderships, yes we can call Christ the "head" of our church, but he is not there to type out the termination notice of employees or file their taxes and so on.
So every church has some leadership, paid or not paid. The early church would have been no difference. We see the listing, Apostles, pastor, deacon, teacher and so on.

[arcura]

Fr. Chuck
That's and excellent point.
I'll make a note of it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

without looking the chapter and verse up, we have the issue where Paul went to Peter to get permission for his conversion of the Gentiles.

Never heard of any time where Paul asked permission from Peter. But such permission would be unnecessary in any case. Paul was commissioned directly by Jesus:

Acts 9:15-16
15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.
NKJV

And the simple fact that from a earthly level, there had to be some organization to allow things to work.

Scripture shows us that the Apostles were empowered and led by Jesus. When Jesus was on the cross, he gave John the responsibility to look after Mary. It is odd that if Jesus meant for any of the Apostles to take leadership over the others that he was not equally clear. The ascension would be when we might expect to see such an announcement. But rather He announces that He is sending them all the Holy Spirit top empower them.

Acts 1:8
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
NKJV

[arcura]

Tj3,
So was Peter commissioned by Jesus.
So the bible says and History proves.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
So was Peter commissioned by Jesus.
So the bible says and History proves.

Agreed. Peter was commissioned by Jesus to evangelize the Jews:

Gal 2:5-8
6 But from those who seemed to be something--whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man--for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter
NKJV

[arcura]

The bible says a lot more about Peter than that.
And that passages does not say that Peter was to JUST work with the Jews.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

The bible says a lot more about Peter than that.
And that passages does not say that Peter was to JUST work with the Jews.

The Bible does say more about Peter, and about Paul, and James, and the rest of the Apostles.

[Tj3]

Let's see if we can get back on topic.

Peter was commissioned by Jesus to evangelize the Jews:

Gal 2:5-8
6 But from those who seemed to be something--whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man--for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter
NKJV

[Criado]

without looking the chapter and verse up, we have the issue where Paul went to Peter to get permission for his conversion of the Gentiles.

I wonder which part of the Bible this is located? God commissioned Paul as the chosen vessel to bear His name unto the Gentiles, why ask for permission from Peter?

[Fr_Chuck]

How about ACTS 15, I always laugh everyone knows the bible and argues every little word, but when the bible says something they don't want to hear they seem to forget where it is at.
Paul and others went to get a answer and go to the Apostles about the question. And of course it was Peter and James that were the ones who spoke on the subject.

This is of course the issue with far too many independent churches today, merely being declared they do not wish to follow and be under the authority of the church leaders. And why when someone gets upset from a the chicken to a parking spot, they run off and start a new church.

Paul was not independent he followed and was part of the entire Church.

[Criado]

But when the bible says something they don't want to hear they seem to forget where it is at.

I am glad I am not one of them.

Can you elaborate more and show how Acts 15 shows Paul went to Peter to get permission for his conversion of the Gentiles.

[sndbay]

The foundation of the church was built upon The Rock = Christ, and that foundation being the fellowship we are not strangers in knowing because it is the House of God..

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

There was one Head, the Highest of priest known to us = The Anointed One, who guides us in His Way in doing the Will of God the Father Almighty. The foundation built:

Eph 2:20-22 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The Temple is Christ

We rest in The Temple that is Christ. Nothing built by the hands of man on this earth can replace the reality of who the Temple is to us.

We are not of this world once we are baptized in newness of life with Christ Jesus. (John 17:14 John 17:16)

Do not find this strange for it is written...Christ said:

I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

[Tj3]

How about ACTS 15

Which verse? I have looking through this chapter and cannot find anything that says what you indicated. The closest that I could find were as follows:

1) Acts 15:1-4

Acts 15:1-4
15:1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question. 3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren.
NKJV

Peter is not even mentioned. And the question was not whether to send Paul to preach to the gentiles, but rather whether a group of them, including Paul, should got to Jerusalem to resolve this dispute regarding circumcision. It had nothing to do even with conversion of the Gentiles. The only mention of conversion of the Gentiles was when they gave a report on it to the church in Phoenicia and Samaria.

I see nothing here about Peter.
I see nothing about Paul asking permission for anything.
I see nothing about anyone asking for permission to convert the Gentiles.

Or were you thinking of this?

2) Acts 15:22-23

Acts 15:22-23
22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barnabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. 23 They wrote this letter by them:
NKJV

Once again, Peter is not mentioned, and it is with regard to sending men WITH Paul and Barnabas to Antioch. So again,

- There is no mention of Peter in the sending
- No asking of permission
- No mention of conversion of the Gentiles
- They were not sending Paul but men to go along with Paul and Barnabas.

The rest of Acts 15 is dealing with the discussions and the decision taken at the council of Jerusalem.

Were you thinking of a different verse?

[arcura]

I believe that what Father Chuck is referring to is here.
Acts 15: 1. BUT SOME men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
2. And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.
3. So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, reporting the conversion of the Gentiles, and they gave great joy to all the brethren.
4. When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them.
5. But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses."
6. The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter.
7. And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8. And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us;
9. and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith.
10. Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11. But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."
12. And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.
13. After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brethren, listen to me.
14. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15. And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written,
16. 'After this I will return, and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up
<+><+><+>
Peter was giving instructions on how and why to deal with the Gentiles.
We see that "Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question" and when they did the leader. Peter spoke to them about dealing with the Gentiles.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

Were you thinking of a different verse?

Tj3,

Perhaps he is speaking of Acts 10 where God told Peter he was sending three Gentile men ... I believe Acts 10:28 defines why...

God warned Peter not to call anything unclean that He made clean, and thus showed Peter by dropping the food before him 3 times,= (evident indentity) that what Peter as a Hebrew could not eat, and would not eat... would not be demanded unto the Gentiles. Noted by Acts 10:28

This authority was issued at God's command as was everything done by Peter.

[arcura]

sndbay,
That is a goo point and it does tie together with the reat of Acts up to chapter 15.
I read read the whole thing and I do believe that is what Fr. Chuck was referring to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred