[jmccants6]

I work in construction and we've been having an odd problem. A few houses that have tiled shower floors on the second floor have had discoloration in the grout and holding moisture. Some homes have had the leaks come through the ceiling to the first floor. We thought that the weep holes were clogged and had the portland removed and reinstalled by putting spacers around the drain and retiled. It still happens. Then we removed the grout and replaced it with epoxy grout and it still happens. The plumber claims its not him and that there's no leak. The tiler states that it's not him that he's done everything by the book. What can we possibly be missing here. Any suggestions? Please help!

[Milo Dolezal]

What's happening is that the moisture being absorbed by grout. This should not happened if new grout is allowed to dry for 72 hours, and than a good, solvent based sealer is applied and allowed to dry.

Usually, it can be one of the following:

1. No slope on under-layment, bellow hot mop / PVC liner
2. Clogged weep holes (you already handled this one )
Also
3. Drain head set too high
4. Grouted with thin set
5. Grout not sealed, allowed to dry prior use
Also
6. It can be reacting between shampoo, hair bleach, hair color runoff with grout

But most probable cause is: #1

Did you have a licensed Hot Mopper install the waterproofing or tile man did it himself ? When you opened up the drain/tile to clean the weep holes - was concrete moist around the drain ?

[Bljack]

The most important thing to realize here is that a properly constructed pan, shower walls, bench, curb, and niches do not get their waterproofing from tile, grout, sealer, or caulk. Those are just finishes applied to the properly constructed and waterproofed enclosure.

Rather than type a novel, if you'd like to discuss this, email your phone # to brianstile(at)comcast(dot)net.



Also, if you have any pictures either from the construction phase or the /demo/repair phase, send them along as well.

My initial guesses would be the

a) liner not wrapped over the curb and or cement board used to fashion the curb

b) a bench built into the shower with the liner run up the front of the bench, over the seat, and then some genius nails cement board through it

c) fasteners installed int eh cement board walls at a point lower than 3" above the finished curb height

d) failure to install 4-6 mil or plastic sheeting or roofing felt behind the cement board walls and over lapping the liner turned up over the walls which is the water proofing for the shower

e) if a liquid topical waterproofing membrane was used, fabric reinforcement if inside corners was neglected

f) knee walls in direct spray of the shower heads without proper waterproofing of the top of the knee wall.

g) were any of these showers built to be curbless?

h) on the outside chance, an inappropriate material was used for the liner. EPMD, for example is not compatible with the alkalinity of the portland in the setting and preslope bed.

1. No slope on under-layment, bellow hot mop / PVC liner... 3. Drain head set too high

These two go hand in hand, but neither will create a leak. If the liner is properly installed into the clamping ring of the drain assembly and was run up the walls about 8" without any punctures, it acts as a basin holding water, but the water won't leak out. It will hold stagnating water and smell disgusting in time, but it won't leak. It also doesn't really matter at what height the drain base is set as the presloped bed at the drain would be at the height of the surface of the bottom prtion of the clamping ring drain assembly.

4. Grouted with thin set
5. Grout not sealed, allowed to dry prior use
Also
6. It can be reacting between shampoo, hair bleach, hair color runoff with grout

Utter nonsense. If it was built properly, it needs no tile, thinset, grout, or caulk to be waterproof.

Did you have a licensed Hot Mopper

Hot mopper?? You must be from the west coast. Here in the east, tar is only used for roads and roofs.

I'm pretty certain that after discussing things, we can figure out what went wrong and how to fix. Afterwards, I'll re post to this thread with what happened and the solution so others may learn from it.

Brian

I look forward to being able to discuss this with you.

[jmccants6]

These are all new homes... therefore, by the time the homeowner has moved in it's been a month or so before the showers have been used giving plenty of time for grout to dry. It's the same builder with multiple communities but this occurrence is happening in just one community. The plumber puts the liner and drain in and the tiler installs the portland and creates pitch and waits 24 hours before starting install of tiles. The slope is from no less then a 1/4" to no more then 1/2" per sqft. They are doing nothing different then in our other communities but this particular one is the only one having this issue and actually the same installers. We have noticed when lifting the tiles around the drain that the portland is moist and also along the main shower wall bottom edges which would be the wall you would look at in front of you when opening the glass door and underneath the shower head wall edges. As I mentioned before, the tiler has removed both portland and re tiled and has returned to remove grout and regrout with an epoxy grout. We experimented with one customer with this epoxy grout and she is again showing signs of moisture coming through again... We are desperate for answers because everyone seems clueless.

[jmccants6]

Bljack call me at 941-916-4814 I'm based out of Florida and I really need some help. My name is Gigi

[Milo Dolezal]

Gigi: You probably will not like my suggestion, but:

At this point, with so much already done - and some much at stake - I would rip out the pan and re do it. Believe me: it is lot quicker. Somebody obviously didn't follow the installation protocol and is not telling you what where he screwed up.

Btw: plumber doesn't install waterproofing. In our area, you have to have licensed to do shower pan waterproffing. Sometimes, tile-man lays PVC liner.

[jmccants6]

Milo,

In this specific scenario the portland was replaced first time around. The 2nd time shower the whole thing (shower liner, portland and tiles) were replaced. 3rd time grout was replaced with an epoxy grout. Problem still persists.

[Bljack]

Bljack: lets keep the conversation open. Thank you

I agree Milo, but it was quicker to have a phone conversation, and as I promised here's the basic details...

1) the shower was constructed without a sloped bed under the liner creating a basin that would hold water without directing it to the weep holes

2) the cement board walls were fastened through the liner at the botom of the backer and was installed to create the curb. That provided plenty of drain holes through the liner into the wall cavities.

3) no moisture barrier was installed on the walls prior to the cbu. That allows water hitting the corners of the walls to free fall into the framing

4) there was no topical waterproofing used on the knee wall which allows another path for water to leak through.

5 mastic was used on the walls which in a wet environment, will reemulsify and cause the staining that was experienced on the walls and pan.

In all, it was a failure on the GC for not ensuring the liner was prepitched, on the drywallers for improper fastening of the wall materials and failure to install a moisture barrier on the walls prior to installing the cbu and a failure on the tile setter for improper setting materials and improper curb construction.

Lots of folks dropped the ball on this one and it will be a complete redo. Hopefully, they will learn from this and do it correctly from this point on.

[Milo Dolezal]

Jmccants6: Ok, lets see if we are on the same page. Enclosed is a drawing of typical shower pan. See if all steps have been followed and all layers installed:

From the bottom up, layers are:

1. Black heavy line: plywood
2. Red line: Asphalt paper, sealed, 12" high up the wall
3. Blue line: First layer of concrete, sloped at 1/4" towards the drain ( done by the guy responsible for shower pan )
4. Green line: Asphalt paper, sealed, 12" high, going over the drain in one piece. Upper shell of drain is installed over this layer and into Henry 208 sealer or equivalent. Hole in the drain will be cut up on completion
5. Blue line: Second bed of concrete, sloped towards drain (usually done by tile man )
6. Short Black line: Tile

See if this corresponds with your installation. If not, tell me what's missing.

[Milo Dolezal]

I agree Milo, but it was quicker to have a phone conversation, and as I promised here's the basic details...

1) the shower was constructed without a sloped bed under the liner creating a basin that would hold water without directing it to the weep holes

2) the cement board walls were fastened through the liner at the botom of the backer and was installed to create the curb. That provided plenty of drain holes through the liner into the wall cavities.

3) no moisture barrier was installed on the walls prior to the cbu. That allows water hitting the corners of the walls to free fall into the framing

4) there was no topical waterproofing used on the knee wall which allows another path for water to leak through.

5 mastic was used on the walls which in a wet environment, will reemulsify and cause the staining that was experienced on the walls and pan.

In all, it was a failure on the GC for not ensuring the liner was prepitched, on the drywallers for improper fastening of the wall materials and failure to install a moisture barrier on the walls prior to installing the cbu and a failure on the tile setter for improper setting materials and improper curb construction.

Lots of folks dropped the ball on this one and it will be a complete redo. Hopefully, they will learn from this and do it correctly from this point on.

It is hard to believe they installed so many shower pans and missed this one. Besides, it always pays to lay this responsibility with Licensed Shower Pan Waterproofing contractor. GS thought he'll save few buck and now he will have to unload ten times more to have it fixed. In my area typical shower pan water proofing installed by specialty contractor runs around $300.00 for 3'x4' pan. Not really an expensive proposition. Drywall installers usually know where to put nails. Every tile man knows to install moisture barrier under wonderboard.

Too many things - with too many different specialty contractors - have gone wrong here. Something appears to be fishy here... Would it be that work was done by cheap laborers?

[Bljack]

Guess that's sort of a makeshift diagram for a hotmop??

Over the plywood would be roofing felt which acts as a slip sheet and prevents moisture in the preslope mud from being lost into the plywood. Then it's diamond lath, then preslope mud bed, then liner wrapped up the walls, with a bead of silicone and then piched by the clamping ring of the drain, then a moisture barrier installed over the framing and overlapping the pan liner, then diamond lath over the curb and cbu installed on the walls without any fasteners in the bottom 8" of cbu or on the interior or top side of the curb, then the setting bed of mortar is uniformly about 1.25" thick but follows the slope of the liner and pins the bottom of the cbu to the framing and the interior curb side of lath to the liner wrapped curb. Weep hole protection is your choice... spacers. Pea gravel, crushed tile, etc. Curb is fashioned out of masons mix.

Hot mop is required to be (I think) 3 layers of tar and felt. If built on a slab, the preslope bed can skip the lath and felt and be bonded to the slab with a slurry of thinset. In seismic areas like CA, roofing felt and lath is probably a good idea to not bond the shower pan to the slab.

[jmccants6]

I did mention this is on the second floor. I went to a new model under construction and I see the plywood (black line). I do not see the red line (asphault paper). I can not see the concrete slope (blue line) because the liner is already installed. I do, however, see a pitch. And I can't see the green (asphault paper) because the liner is already installed... this unit is pending tile install. I believe this particular unit looks okay with coding... it's the older units built last year where we are having the problems. We will be ripping up tomorrow and be able to get a better look so I can see the layers.

[Milo Dolezal]

Please, take lots of photos and post it here...

1. There should be layer of asphalt paper over plywood. That's because when hot water hits cold concrete it immediately creates condensation. Also, naturally, concrete is constantly moist. That layer keeps water from damaging plywood sub floor.
2. The first layer of concrete is very important: it is the actual slope that will create slope for next layer of tar paper ( or PVC liner).
3. Next layer of tar paper/PVC has to go in one piece over the drain.

Then: fill pan with water for testing purposes. Leave water there over night. Don't skip this test .

[bigk200]

This is an old thread, but hopefully this might be of help. My shower floor has also started leaking into the downstairs ceiling. I'm early in the process and have not yet torn out the tile to see what's going on, but I have a theory that not yet been presented on this thread.

I reviewed photographs taken when the shower floor was installed, and it appears that my installer allowed concrete/morter mix onto the top face of the round drain flange that is screwed to the subfloor. I'm betting that he never cleaned it off prior to installing the rubber membrane. This surface needs to be clean to insure that the rubber membrain is uniformly clamped between the bottom flange fastened to the subfloor and the top flange that is screwed or bolted to the bottom flange.

I'll know more when I get it torn out, but I'm fairly sure this is the reason for leak. The guy doing my tile work was a dumb sh**t, so this woudn't surprise me in the least.

[speedball1]

And I'm betting tat you'll find the tile man didn't Clean the motor out of the weep holes before he clamped the top section down. Please keep me in the loop and let me know what you find. Good luck, Tom