[sajjw]

It is very brave of me to pose this question, as there are bound to be people who misunderstand me and believe I am defending backyard breeders. Let me make it clear now, I am not. I feel that it is a despicable practice and if I could be instrumental in bringing about the persecution and punishment of all those involved (plus the puppy farmers etc) I would not hesitate.
I do think that it would be helpful however to have a discussion on the way backyard breeders are handled on this site and whether this is in the best interests of their dogs, who after all are the priority of all dog lovers. Currently, the situation seems to be that as soon as a new user is suspected of being a backyard breeder, the experienced experts demand their credentials and become rather critical and aggressive (which is understandable). The effect that this reaction is likely to have is that the BYB will not return to the site. How is this helping their dogs? OK we do not have to listen to more of the sickeningly ignorant questions that make us angry but maybe if the BYB does not get his question answered, he will forget about the problem/query he has and just carry on as normal. I can't think that being criticised by strangers is going to stop the type of person who is breeding dogs for the wrong reasons from doing so. Surely the fact that they are asking questions rather than just arrogantly assuming they know enough is a good thing?
For example, if a new user comes onto this site and says "I've just bred a litter and the pups all look really pot bellied", other users could start to lecture about breeding when one does not know such basic information, demanding credentials etc and being hostile or they could explain to the user that his puppies may die if they have an over burden of worms and are not treated. Giving this information in a civil manner may result in the BYB returning to the site and asking more questions in the future and starting to learn some of the basic information that will benefit his dogs for him to know. Which reaction to the question is going to be of more benefit to the dog/pups? I'm not saying do not explain that breeding when you know little or nothing about doing so is a bad idea (and why), its important that people are made aware of that, I just think that if it is explained in a nice way rather than giving in to the understandable anger, this reaction may be better for the dogs and puppies.
Sorry if I've waffled. I'm not saying I'm definitely right in what I'm saying, I just thought it might be interesting to discuss the point.

[N0help4u]

I agree.
I am not a 'back yard breeder' but it annoys the heck out of me when I am treated that way. I got lectured by a person who most likely signed up here just to jump all over me and then leave again when I stated that my dog got pregnant when I chained her out in the yard and my neighbor purposely left her dog loose out her front door because she wanted puppies my dog to have puppies cause she thought I would hand them over to her to sell.
Another thing I do not get is these breeders that say you MUST have your dog spayed by the time it is 6 months or it will get cancer. Are dog breeders dogs immune to getting cancer having all the litters they have through the years or what?
I am for responsible breeding like you know enough people that want puppies from your dog and you don't make it a habit/career getting your dog pregnant. I just do not like the breeders vs ''irresponsible dog owners'' thing that some doggy experts shove at us average dog owners. We love our pets too!

[vwdieseljunkie]

I can touch on this subject a little bit. I understand the basic point you are getting at, as far as this site is concerned. I do not condone "back yard breeding" as I live in an area where "BYB's" are everywhere, and yes it is a problem. Most of these animals die due to ignorance and neglect.

My mother would probably be classified as a "BYB" by most, and would tell anyone who had a problem with it to mind their own business (though not with those words). But she is what I would consider a responsible breeder. She does this not only because she enjoys it, but because it is supplemental income. Unlike most, though, she has a medical background and a great deal of experience. She breeds specialty mixes (small breeds in the mini and teacup varieties) and only breeds based on specific demand. She does her own shots, regulates diet, and keeps a tight schedule on all her females to know when to isolate them to prevent unintentional pregnancies. Plain and simple, she's responsible.

If she were more computer-literate, she would probably really enjoy AMHD, and would be an asset to the site. But the first time someone "jumped" on her for being a "BYB", she'd tell them what bridge to go jump off and offer to drive them there. It's a subject that EVERYONE has an opinion on, and those opinions range from one extreme to the other. But as a general rule, "BYB's" are a real problem, considering how many animals die on a daily basis in shelters.

You want to know that you can offer advice that may help a situation. You also want to refrain from aiding in a situation you disagree with, to prevent yourself from being an "enabler". But sometimes it's easy, and the defining line is bold and you can see it clearly. Other times that defining line is so obscured, though, that you don't know if you if you should chime in or not, and if it would help or not. It's hard to take a black-and-white stand if the issue is in the grey.

[Alty]

So many things I want to say, I probably won't get to them all.

Sajww, I agree, and when I first joined this site and started frequenting the pets forum I did answer the question that BYB's asked. I was kind, caring and helpful and everyday there would be 4 or 5 more questions from more BYB's asking things that should be common knowledge to most people, especially someone planning on breeding their dog.

Some of the people that came thanked me for my help, others would come and ask things like "well, now that the pups are 2 weeks old, when can I breed my dog again?" or "the pups where born without skulls, is this because of bad sperm, should I try again?" or "my dog is bleeding all over the place, I think she's in labor, what should I do?" I started getting angry.

Accidents happen, although I have to say (no offense to you NoHelp, you know I adore you) if people had their pets spayed or neutered before they reached sexual maturity, well, these accidents wouldn't happen. When a dog is in heat the males will dig under fences, jump over fences, you name it, just to get to the female. It really isn't that unusual to have an accidental mating.

It's the people who purposefully breed their dogs without any knowledge at all, those are the ones that upset me, and it never seems to stop. We get a lot of breeding questions from obvious BYB's every day, and that's just a very small percentage of the total BYB's out there. It's scary, sad and makes me sick.

I will say, I've never turned someone away that has a medical problem that I can help with. There was the lady that came on and told us that one of the newborn puppies wasn't breathing, what should she do, she was panicked. I gave the info as fast as I could, and yes, the pup was saved. Afterwards I begged her to have her dog spayed. Turns out, she had found the dog, already pregnant, only a day before, left on the streets to fend for herself and the puppies she carried.

I used to ask questions, but I hardly ever got honest answers, so now, yes, I get mad.

I do see what you're saying Sajjw, I really do. There does have to be a better way, one in which we help the dogs but also educate the owners.

How though? That's my dilemma.

[N0help4u]

S When a dog is in heat the males will dig under fences, jump over fences, you name it, just to get to the female. It really isn't that unusual to have an accidental mating.

It's the people who purposefully breed their dogs without any knowledge at all, those are the ones that upset me, and it never seems to stop. We get alot of breeding questions from obvious BYB's every day, and that's just a very small percentage of the total BYB's out there. It's scary, sad and makes me sick.

I totally agree. What irks me most is the irresponsible owners of male dogs who purposely ALLOW their dogs to roam free when there are county leash laws, Unfortunately I have to admit that my Chow had several litters back in the 90's because of loose male dogs getting into my yard through the years, I would have taken her to get spayed but I had four kids, no help and no transportation. She was the sweetest dog in the world and I did give her a good home and 4 kids that loved her. One of those things I wish I could go back in time and 'fix'
I also agree that BYB is really wrong because you should not be using your dog as a money making racket.

[Fr_Chuck]

I will say that first I object to anyone demanding proof of someone's experience to answer a question, the material fact of their answer should be what is important, or the fact they came here to get help.

Often we have people "question" out experts ( people with expert listing" on various things and I am fast to stop those threads since normally they are merely an attack on a poster.

I would treat such threads on dogs the same way, no poster should be attacked if their activity is legal

The simple fact is at this point, I have not seen such posts being reported.

But if I wish to breed my puppy at home, I have that right, and if anyone wishes to say something, tough.

[Alty]

But if I wish to breed my puppy at home, I have that right, and if anyone wishes to say something, tough.

Sadly it is your right to do what you wish with the animals in your care. You're right, no one can stop you, but in the same token, I don't have to agree.

Chuck, I've been witness to the slaughter of animals because of overbreeding, irresponsible breeding and that, I'll do as I wish attitude.

I've seen the videos of puppies being euthanised, thrown into barrels presumed dead, but still alive, being covered by other dead dogs, sometimes staying alive for days, eventually dying of starvation, just because there aren't enough homes for them.

Millions of dogs that are already on this earth are euthanised every year. Why? Because there are people out there that don't consider this when breeding their adorable dog, if you can even consider what they do breeding, which I don't.

There are millions of dogs euthanised because of birth defects, genetic defects and just plain irresponsible breeders.

Actually that number is 7 -10 million every year. So I have a real problem with the "I'll do as I wish" attitude, because I choose to watch the repercussions of that thought process. I can't turn away, because I love dogs too much to do so. To me, dogs are not expendable, they aren't a means to make money, they are living, breathing beings with feelings. They feel pain, they feel fear, they feel, period.

Anyone who comes here claiming to love their dog but is doing something that is so detrimental to their health, they need to hear the truth, and that's what we tell them.

Are you saying that we have to coddle them? I've seen you get angry at people in your forum for doing something irresponsible and downright stupid, this is no different. So where do we draw the line? What is acceptable in one forum and not in another? Is there a set of rules for each different forum? If so, what are they?

[starbuck8]

Animal abuse and mistreatment is illegal, and should be treated as such. Dogs aren't expendible, and that is why so many states, and other countries are trying to pass laws to ban backyard breeding and puppymills, and impose fines on the breeders that recklessly breed. The dog world is overcrowded! There are 10,000 children born a day in the US alone, there are 70,000 dogs born everyday! This is a matter of doing the math!

Dogs are not property, as some of the existing laws say. Tax dollars go to fund these shelters, that are over-run with dogs and other animals, that they just can't pay to house! So what do they do? ---they kill them! What other choice do they have? There is just no room!

So are we expected to smile and tell another backyard breeder to just breed another litter, that will have another litter---that breeds another litter---and so on, just because someone says---so what! --I'll do what I want! Can we stop them? Not YET!

I know there have been several people that have come to the pet forum that have changed their minds, and not bred their dogs after all, because of what we've told them. Many don't even know about all that goes on, and how many dogs are slautered every single day. We try and make them aware! Is this wrong?---or is this censorship?

[JudyKayTee]

At last a discussion actually being held on a discussion board instead of a thread going South.

As FrChuck has said one of the most aggravating things I find on AMHD is the people who totally don't have a clue and post "Who are you, what makes you an expert, how dare you tell me what to do." It happens. Why these people who know everything are posting questions, I have no idea.

I happen to be a "zero breeding" person. I've worked in rescue. I have rescue dogs. I would not purchase a dog. I would certain "rehome" a dog. It's my personal preference. I believe life is conflicting and confusing enough and a person has to pick her battles. I chose to fight this particular one quietly and in my own way.

I certainly have read a very small percentage of what is posted on the "dog" board (in particular) and only wander over there when the legal threads are closed BUT here was my experience, not with a regular, with the very person who has posted this topic for discussion, the very person who is complaining about the lack of civility on the Board. This was the entire extent of my "contribution" on this thread. https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/dogs/l...ml#post1288920.

This is my entire post on this subject:“I don't know if this will help you but I have big dogs and they got very restless in a kennel after a few hours so I bought one of those doggy playpen things, set that up in the family room and then put the kennel off of that with the kennel fence fastened to it. Gave her room to run and play (to some extent). If she had to "bathroom" she used one corner of the pen. Your puppy is just that - a puppy. One of my dogs never had a brain in her head until she turned 3 and to this day is like a windup machine when I first get home. If the barking and fussing gets no reaction she'll see it's pointless and give it up. I stopped using the playpen when I came home and discovered she found a way to lean against the fence and push and move the whole thing - kennel and all - across the room. That was the end of the kennel and the pen.”

And what did I get back? A REDDIE which reads: sajjw disagrees: "So you think that it is OK to leave a little puppy alone all day? Dogs rae social creatures. This animal is suffering.”

I find it amusing that the very person who is now concerned with kind and gentle answers had such a passive/aggressive/argumentative/misinformed comeback for me, a response which I believe was posted simply to start an argument.

Once again, it's not what people say in one post. It's what you read when you put all of their posts together and read through them. Apparently no one cares how kind and loving the World is or is not until they're losing the argument, then the rules are supposed to change.

Perhaps there have been offensive posts which I have not seen. I haven't seen any tonight and people who are passionate about subjects should be allowed to be passionate. AMHD should not be a one way street where one person says whatever strikes her fancy and then everyone else is supposed to keep it to himself or herself. Not at all.

And the deliberate passive/agressive misinterpretation of other people's comments would be a very good place to start.

[Silverfoxkit]

So you are saying that we should treat all people who want to breed their dogs, backyard, puppymill, or reputable the same. That we should not have the right to condemn a horrible practice. That we should be more understanding of their ignorance and greed. I'm sorry but I just don't think so.
Perhaps maybe we should ask questions first and then shoot later, but don't expect any of us to sit by or help a backyard breeder.
What defines backyard breeder?
A backyard breeder is a person who breeds their dog for profit, fun, or money. They may have an adorable pet that they want to let have puppies, or they may feel their dogs are of the right quality because they come with papers, but papers do not guarantee actual quality. Most of the puppy mill puppies I have seen have come with papers. Often they breed dogs with genetic faults either purposely or ignorantly not thinking this will harm the puppies which further goes to harm the entire breed as a whole. They usually do not put much thought into temperament either, and how that will effect the breed. Poor breeding is what has helped tie the chain and ball to many good breeds reputations such as pitt bulls and chows.
So then, how do you determine who is a backyard breeder and who isn't if you don't "demand credentials"? Why should a few questions bother someone if they aren't backyard breeders? If they are responsible then they will have the answers. If they don't have the answers then they are fooling themselves into thinking they are doing the right thing. If every breeder out there who though of themselves as reputable actually where, then there wouldn't be so many shelter dogs dying every day.

What kind of should a reputable breeder know?
1.What health and temperament tests have been done on the parents?
2. How many litters do they generally have and how often do they breed their dogs? Every litter?
3. What kind of contract do the puppies come with? Spay and Neuter agreement? Health Guarantee?

If every breeder out there who though of themselves as reputable actually where, then there wouldn't be so many shelter dogs dying every day. I don't see this issue as grey at all. This is a life and death situation. If we can even change one person's mind about breeding their dogs then we've made a difference in the world, a small one, but its better then ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away. If we don't speak up who else will?

[linnealand]

The established members who regularly participate on the pet boards know that the people who volunteer their free time to helping every person who goes through that part of the site are by far some of the most supportive, caring, empathetic and understanding people out there. I happen to believe that the people who participate on the pet boards consider an enormous amount of information when responding to every post. I also think the information shared there is vital to the health and well being of hundreds upon hundreds (if not thousands upon thousands) of dogs, cats and other animals. I think it would be a mistake to be anything but proud of the good that is accomplished there.

I know that I have done everything in my power to be supportive and friendly with you, and I have spent an enormous amount of my time helping you to have a good experience here. Wouldn't you agree with that? I also know that Alty, Starbuck and other members have each gone out of their way to be kind and generous to you again and again. There's one reason behind that: it's because they're good and solid people. I think the good participants on the pet boards are absolutely amazing, period. Altenweg, for example, is nothing but a total and complete blessing to this site. She has done more for the pet boards in her time as a pet expert than you can even imagine.

With all due respect, I remember that you very recently posted that you had never heard of backyard breeding, so I must tell you that I am a little curious to hear how you know so much about it now that you feel that you should be telling the people who have had extensive experience with this issue how they should or should not be approaching it.

... I was criticised by 'Tickle' for mentioning breeding although this person knows nothing about me! The facts are, that last year I bred a beautiful litter of Irish Setters in the south of England where there is a shortage of this lovely breed. If it wasn't for people like me this beautiful breed would die out... And I was warned that I would be considered a so called 'backyard breeder' whatever that is! I didn't bother to waste my time explaining...

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/dogs/d...-316801-5.html

You might consider this to be a neutral question, but I don't. Yes, it is widely accepted that backyard breeding has reached epidemic proportions. Approximately two-thirds of the 53 million dogs in the U.S. come from backyard breeders, which has classified them as the single greatest cause of the pet overpopulation crisis in this country.

Consider this breeder's question for a moment (yes, this was a real post): "At least there alive and healthy for the most part... my chip boy, his ex gf got preggo and only one survived, one was born with its brain outside its skull(under the skin) and one had no head and no front paws. the two were dead of course. that makes me wonder.... u think his sperm is contaminated or something?!" would you recommend the answer be yes or no? Pardon my French, but I think the overall picture deserves a moment of reflection and perhaps a minute or two of educated research. In my opinion, it would be completely unethical to not take that step. As long as you follow the rules, you can answer breed related questions as you please. I hope you respect the fact that others are free to do the same.

All of that aside, I do think there is a perfect way to answer the question you posted in this thread. Here's how to do it: take as many of the questions you can find posted on the pet boards that relate to backyard breeding, and call as many veterinarians, shelters, rescue groups, humane organizations, breed clubs and reputable breeders as you possibly can. Post those questions to any one of those organizations, and then come back to tell us if their advice is any different than the advice shared on the pet boards. By the way, it won't be.

[Alty]

Linny, Starby, Silver and Judy, I wish I could give all of you a greenie. Sadly, that's not an option here.

What would this site be without all of you? I hope we never find out.

Sajjw, I extended an olive branch and thwack, you have now hit me in the face with it.

My gut says put you on my ignore list, but I can't, I have to read your posts because I care about what we tell people who come here. Like I told you before, I'm not always nice, because I can't always be nice, if a BYB or puppymill "breeder" comes here and has a problem with that, well, I can live with that.

We all do this in our own free time, because we care. So you're either part of the solution or part of the problem. You've been straddling the fence, it's time to pick a side.

You don't have to agree with me, I don't expect that, but stop jumping around. What do you believe in? What do you want to stand up for? Your choice, but choose.

That's all I'm going to say. I welcome you to AMHD, I've done so before, I hope that you can be respectful of what we do here and that you won't continue to rock the boat.

Good luck.

[Bluerose]

I do not own a dog but I would like to comment regards replying to questions put forward on this board. I believe everyone who asks a question should receive an honest accurate reply without judgment.

[sajjw]

No Silverfoxkit, I am not saying that you do not have the right to condemn BYB's -of course you do and I have condemned them myself in my question. What I am saying is that despite the fact that their ignorant questions are enough to make one sick, is it in the best interests of their dogs to be unpleasant to them, resulting in them not using the site any more to gain information that will be beneficial to their dogs for them to have. I do think it is a good idea to explain to these people how much harm they are doing and all the reasons they should not breed their dog because after all, if there is a possibility that this will discourage them from breeding this is very worthwhile.

[sajjw]

Altenweg, I am confused. Your initial response to this was to nicely explain why you get mad at back yard breeders and that when you first came on this site you used to answer their questions etc (you can read it yourself on page one). You then go on to say (quote)

I do see what you're saying Sajjw, I really do. There does have to be a better way, one in which we help the dogs but also educate the owners.
How though? That's my dilemma. (unquote)

Then later on, you post that you feel that by posing this thought for discussion I am hitting you in the face with the olive branch that you offered and that I should decide which side of the fence I want to be.
It is obvious from my post that I am on the side of the fence that is against backyard breeding. I just think that the wellbeing of dogs is the most important thing and if prioritising them means swallowing my anger and bitterness in order to help inform BYB's and encourage them to keep asking questions I personally would be prepared to do this. That may be wrong. I do say at the end of my post "I'm not saying I'm definitely right in what I'm saying" I was just interested in the opinions of others regarding this.
I don't mean to cause anyone offence.

[sajjw]

I have already thanked you for your civility and kindness Linnealand and I do appreciate it very much. I hope that you do not feel that by defending myself, I intend to put you down in any way. This is not my intention at all. From things that I have read from you, it is clear that you are very knowledgeable and open minded and have a kind and generous nature.


[QUOTE=linnealand;1578238]
With all due respect, I remember that you very recently posted that you had never heard of backyard breeding, so I must tell you that I am a little curious to hear how you know so much about it now that you feel that you should be telling the people who have had extensive experience with this issue how they should or should not be approaching it.(unquote)

Thank you for the respect, please remember that I also posted that of course I was aware of the practice of BYB, I just had not heard that particular term for it before (I wondered if it was an american phrase). I am not claiming that I know "so much about it", I am aware of what it means, but am certainly no expert and have never claimed to be. I am not telling anyone how they should or should not be approaching BYB, I am simply expressing a thought that I had and asking for others opinions on it.



(Quote)... I was criticised by 'Tickle' for mentioning breeding although this person knows nothing about me! The facts are, that last year I bred a beautiful litter of Irish Setters in the south of England where there is a shortage of this lovely breed. If it wasn't for people like me this beautiful breed would die out... And I was warned that I would be considered a so called 'backyard breeder' whatever that is! I didn't bother to waste my time explaining... (unquote)

I have already posted that in hindsight, I realise that this was a silly thing to say and now wonder how long it is going to be thrown in my face for.



(Quote)
As long as you follow the rules, you can answer breed related questions as you please. I hope you respect the fact that others are free to do the same. (unquote)

Of course I respect the fact that people on here are free to answer questions as they please! With regard to me doing so, if the upshot of this discussion is that it turns out NOT to be in dogs' best interests for their BYB's to be informed and encouraged to keep asking questions then I wouldn't do so.

[Fr_Chuck]

So a loving family that loves their pets and finds them good homes are bad, but a commercial operation where they do it "professionally" which often means the animals are not family members but livestock is good. Am I missing something,

[JudyKayTee]

Of course I respect the fact that people on here are free to answer questions as they please! With regard to me doing so, if the upshot of this discussion is that it turns out NOT to be in dogs' best interests for their BYB's to be informed and encouraged to keep asking questions then I wouldn't do so.

You cannot come on this board, all fire and brimstone, deliberate misunderstanding and argumentative nature and then decide to play nice in the interest of "the dogs." I also question your ability - for that matter, most people's ability - to know what is in the best interest of "the dogs."

As far as BYB and neutering - I doubt very highly that words on this Board are going to change the World as far as that is concerned. Were it a possibility, mandatory spay/neuter programs wouldn't be in effect all over the World.

I would find this question - "how should backyard breeders be handled ..." - to be just as offensive if it were posted on any other board. For example, were it "how should shoplifters be handled ..." I would request that the thread be closed. This is another example of people who have donated literally thousands of hours answering questions, researching, being criticized by someone with 30+ posts who first came on the board only to cause a problem, unable to express herself in any other manner.

And, again, I find any lecturing on how to behave on a board, how to show compassion, to be particularly surprising in light of this thread: 4 - In view of your "I don't want another child if it's going to end up to be a boy" post you are the LAST person to be lecturing me or anyone else on anything faintly resembling compassion and understanding. https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/pregnan...ml#post1541843

Does no one read past threads?

[Fr_Chuck]

And it is almost always a new member who comes in and questions things.
Not someone who has been here a year or have 1000 posts

[JudyKayTee]

And it is almost always a new member who comes in and questions things.
Not someone who has been here a year or have 1000 posts

Bingo! 44,000 between us. YIKES! I need to get a life.