[Criado]

That's right! Am I claiming differently?

Sin is based on Act and not on Nature.

[Tj3]

That's right! Am I claiming differently?

Sin is based on Act and not on Nature.

That is only but your redefinition of the word "Act". You effectively deny any differentiation between thought and act.

You argument about nature falls apart on two points:

1) Your definition of homosexual (as you definition of acts) is not the same as the dictionary definition:

------------------------------------
Homosexual

Adjective
1. sexually attracted to members of your own sex [ant: bisexual, heterosexual]

Noun
1. someone who practices homosexuality; having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.
Cite This Source
------------------------------------

2) You have failed to show that a homosexual is a homosexual by nature. Scripture is clear that homosexuals can change.

[Criado]

What I understand as homosexual is what is "having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex"

.. and this is what I am saying is natural to them... based on my conversation with them

Kindly clear, what can be changed to homosexual that you are claiming that can be changed based on the scripture.

[arcura]

Criado,
I am fimrly convinced that and act can be either physical or mental or both.
I frequently pray by mind and not spoke word.
And I'm convinced that God hears my prayers as such
Peace and kindness.
Fred

[Tj3]

What I understand as homosexual is what is "having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex"

.. and this is what I am saying is natural to them... based on my conversation with them

Unfortunately, this understanding which you say is based upon anecdotal evidence, is not supported by science of the Bible.

Kindly clear, what can be changed to homosexual that you are claiming that can be changed based on the scripture.

I am not sure what you are asking, but people can choose to be homosexual:

Rom 1:18-32
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
NKJV

And can change from homosexuals to heterosexuals:

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

As Fred pointed out, and I can attest to, this is not just words in the Bible, but there are organizations which have shown considerable success in witnessing to homosexuals who have changed and I have met men who were once homosexuals changed by the power of God.

[Criado]

Unfortunately, this understanding which you say is based upon anecdotal evidence, is not supported by science of the Bible.

I beg to disaree. Nature teaches. (I Cor 11:14) and one of the things I learned that these person cannot change what they are. And what cannot be change is of nature, created by God. (Romans 9:20-21).

I am not sure what you are asking, but people can choose to be homosexual:

I agree. But this is not the one I am referring to (and maybe this is the cause of our misunderstanding).

1) Those who are like prostitutes for natural homosexuals. I honestly don't know how to call them. I don't know if you got what I means.

2) They are also those mentioned in Romans 1:26-27. This persons are using women before then shifts to man.

These of course have choice unlike the naturally born ones. But I still believe that there are those based on what the nature shows.

[Tj3]

I beg to disaree. Nature teaches. (I Cor 11:14) and one of the things I learned that these person cannot change what they are.

First, this verse has nothing to do with the topic. It is speaking about hair length:

1 Cor 11:14-15
14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?
NKJV

And what cannot be change is of nature, created by God. (Romans 9:20-21).

Circular reasoning. You assume that it is the nature that they are born with, thus you conclude that it cannot be changed, and thus your proof that it is their nature.

The reality is that scripture attests to homosexuals changing to heterosexcual and both Fred and I have attested to modern cases. Based upon your syllogism, if it can be changed, it is not their nature.

I agree. But this is not the one I am referring to (and maybe this is the cause of our misunderstanding).

1) Those who are like prostitutes for natural homosexuals. I honestly don't know how to call them. I don't know if you got what I means.

2) They are also those mentioned in Romans 1:26-27. This persons are using women before then shifts to man.

These of course have choice unlike the naturally born ones. But I still believe that there are those based on what the nature shows.

Homosexuality is exhibited in many ways, but whether you believe that homosexuality can be something that a person can be born with does not make it fact, and does not alter what the evidence is (both scientific and scriptural).

[Criado]

First, this verse has nothing to do with the topic. It is speaking about hair length:

1 Cor 11:14-15
14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?
NKJV

This is to show that nature really teaches things.

Based upon your syllogism, if it can be changed, it is not their nature.

Yes;

Homosexuality is exhibited in many ways, but whether you believe that homosexuality can be something that a person can be born with does not make it fact, and does not alter what the evidence is (both scientific and scriptural).

Scientific? Please research about the comparison of brain structure of homosexuals and heterosexuals. You should also consider "studying them" (I hate using this word to them but I can't think of any term.. sorry.. ) by talking to them.
Scriptural? I already laid my basis.

[Tj3]

This is to show that nature really teaches things.

No one has disagreed. What is the point with respect to the topic?

Yes

And since we have shown that they can be changed, homosexuals are not homosexuals by nature.

Scientific? Please research about the comparison of brain structure of homosexuals and heterosexuals. You should also consider "studying them" (I hate using this word to them but I can't think of any term.. sorry.. ) by talking to them.
Scriptural? I already laid my basis.

I have done both, and I related the results.

[Criado]

And since we have shown that they can be changed, homosexuals are not homosexuals by nature.

Wrong. If they have changed, they are not BORN homosexual.

I have done both, and I related the results.

So am I.

[Tj3]

Wrong. If they have changed, they are not BORN homosexual.

That is what I said. So homosexuals are not homosexuals by nature.

[Criado]

That is what I said. So homosexuals are not homosexuals by nature.

I think you missed my post #126.

[Tj3]

I think I you missed my post #126.

I saw it.

[Criado]

Then is it clear now?

[Tj3]

Then is it clear now?

I see no difference to what I said before. My comments were in response to that post.

[Criado]

I just point out in my post#126 the Homosexual that can be changed to hetero.

[Tj3]

I just point out in my post#126 the Homosexual that can be changed to hetero.

So why are you arguing with me over homosexuals being "natural"

[Wondergirl]

I beg to disaree. Nature teaches. (I Cor 11:14) and one of the things I learned that these person cannot change what they are.

I agree. If homosexuals "change" and act like heterosexuals, get married to someone of the opposite sex, even have children, they are living a lie. They are still homosexuals to the core. I could "change" into a homosexual and move to the Bay Area and become a partner to my homosexual friend Laurie, but I am living a lie. I am still a heterosexual to the core.

[Tj3]

I agree. If homosexuals "change" and act like heterosexuals, get married to someone of the opposite sex, even have children, they are living a lie.

Who are you to insult so many men and women who have had the courage to come to Christ and submit their choice of orientation to Him.

[arcura]

Criado,
Again I agree with Tj3 .
There ARE former homosexuals who HAVE changed.
Peace and kindness,
Fred