[Wondergirl]

All there has to be is one to show it is possible, and we have many more than that, along with Biblical testimony to the truth of such changes.

Have you watched their eyes when a buff guy walks past? Have you asked them what they think about during sex with a woman?

regarding the number of homosexuals who you have personally known and still know.

I've known a few. During the mid-'60s and earlier, they did their best to pass as heterosexuals. And when they commit suicide because they can't deal with the rigidity of and Scriptural misunderstandings by the fundamentalist Christians... Thank God they can live as who they are now (at least more so than before)!

if you can state and validate it as fact that you know everything that has ever happened to every homosexual from the beginning of creation

Can you?

[Tj3]

Have you watched their eyes when a buff guy walks past? Have you asked them what they think about during sex with a woman?

Do you often go around asking this of people? Wouldn't you think that a bit... how shall I say it... strange to ask of ANYONE (except maybe your spouse)?

I've known a few. During the mid-'60s and earlier, they did their best to pass as heterosexuals. And when they commit suicide because they can't deal with the rigidity of and Scriptural misunderstandings by the fundamentalist Christians... Thank God they can live as who they are now!

They committed suicide, but now they can live as they want??

Again, all I know are your stories. I know people who have ended up changing. And you could say that those are just stories also, but what do you say to the thousands of testimonies of those who were once homosexuals - are you calling them all liars?

And what about scripture - it is clear about the change. Or do you think that scripture errs there also?

[Wondergirl]

Do you often go around asking this of people? Wouldn't you think that a bit... how shall I say it... strange to ask of ANYONE?

Rhetorical question, Tom, rhetorical question. Of course, counselors can ask that question.

They committed suicide, but now they can live as they want??

Homosexuals, those then and those now. And they still commit suicide...

are you calling them all liars?

I'm calling them scared.

Or do you think that scriptures errs there also?

No, fundamentalist Christians do in their interpretation of it.

[Tj3]

Rhetorical question, Tom, rhetorical question. Of course, counselors can ask that question.

Then we can ignore that since it is only speculation on your part. And I don't go around speculating on what other people think about when having sex. So let's move on.

Homosexuals, those then and those now. And they still commit suicide...

So do all sorts of people, all colours, all languages, heterosexual, pedophiles, hypersexuals, alcoholics, drug addicts, etc. etc. for many and varied reasons. I spoke to one homosexual who professed to be a Christian and he refused to change because he "embraced" and "loved" his homosexuality. In cases like that, change is, of course, not possible because he is refusing to change. There is a point where God give us over to our passions:

Rom 1:24-32
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
NKJV

No, fundamentalist Christians do in their interpretation of it.

No interpretation - it is as explicit as any verse in scripture is.

[Wondergirl]

Then we can ignore that since it is only speculation on your part. And I don't go around speculating on what other people think about when having sex. So let's move on.

I'm a counselor.

it is as explicit as any verse in scripture is.

... when it has a fundamentalist, literalist spin on it.

[Tj3]

I'm a counselor.

Yep, but stories are stories and all we know is what you tell us. We have no way of validating it because you are not about to give names and contact information. But even if you did, a few cases does not mean that there are never any cured homosexuals, especially when those have changed are often quite willing to tell about it, and scripture tells us specifically that it can and does happen.

... when it has a fundamentalist, literalist spin on it.

Read what it says - It is hard to imagine how it could be any clearer.

[Wondergirl]

Yep, but stories are stories and all we know is what you tell us.

I am, master's in counseling psychology. I don't lie. I'll PM or email you with evidence if you wish.

scripture tells us specifically that it can and does happen.

That's not what that means, if you are referring to the verse you quoted earlier.

It is hard to imagine how it could be any clearer.

... that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand. Mark 4:12.

[Tj3]

I am, master's in counseling psychology. I don't lie. I'll PM or email you with evidence if you wish.

I did not say that you lie, but you should know that saying that you have a master's degree is no proof that a person will not lie. I have seen people claim to have degrees - and don't, and I have seen people with degrees who lie. So that is no proof.

Also, without the ability to validate the evidence (which presumably would also be in writing), we have no way of knowing the details around the situation or validating the story.

Next, you outright reject testimonies of men and women who have been changed - if you don't feel such testimonies are credible then why should we assume yours are any more credible.

Lastly, even if all the testimonies that you provide are true and credible, it still does not alter the testimonies that I know about and does not alter the word of God; and because oen or more people do not change (for whatever reasons), that does not mean that others don't.

Keep in mind that if these people have a counselor who believes that it is impossible to change, then if they accept the advise of the counselor and consider her opinion credible, they will be convinced that they cannot change. The problem may not be with the efficacy of God's promise, or with the person, but they may be convinced that there is no way out.

That's not what that means, if you are referring to the verse you quoted earlier.

You keep saying that, but when I can read the words, see what the experts say, and read the context, your opinion is not convincing.

[Wondergirl]

if they accept the advise of the counselor

Good counselors don't give advice. It's not the counselor's opinion that matters.

You keep saying that, but when I can read the words, see what the experts say, and read the context, your opinion is not convincing.

Others more educated than I have discussed this very thing with you, but to no avail.

When two sides are speaking entirely different languages, based on entirely different worldviews, it's really hard to have any kind of dialogue. I hereby unscribe to this thread.

[Tj3]

Good counselors don't give advice. It's not the counselor's opinion that matters.

Just the same, if the person is unaware of the freedom that they can receive through Christ, then they may feel trapped. If a doctor treats a hurting patient, then to fail to provide necessary treatment or give advise on how to deal with an injury, they are not helping the person deal with that. If a person is suffering the consequences of sin, they need counseling regarding the way to deal with that, and yes, I would say that they need advice, sound advice.

I do agree that good advice would not necessarily be the counselor's opinion, but if Christian counselor is counseling a Christian, then I would suggest that good advice is readily found in scripture.

Others more educated than I have discussed this very thing with you, but to no avail.

Others, educated or not may have opinions, but when the Greek language experts and the best lexicons available disagree with them, then their opinions are indeed to no avail, despite what education a person may claim to have.

When two sides are speaking entirely different languages, based on entirely different worldviews, it's really hard to have any kind of dialogue. I hereby unscribe to this thread.

If we are both Christians, then our worldviews should be able to be harmonized through submission to God's word.

[Criado]

No, the OP did say "homosexual".

Nah, Levitucus 18:22 said it's "Thou shalt not lie mankind as with womankind." This is an ACT and not Homosexuals per se.

But will not remain a homosexual after being saved.

Why not? I believe being Homosexuals are by nature; not disease nor "self-made" nor a way of thinking. BEING homosexual is not a sin. Homosexual ACTS are. Icannot find anything in the bible stating that a certain State of Being is a sin. In th first place, God created nature.

Jesus was explicit in Matthew 5 that sin is not the mere act, but also the inclination / desire that one has prior to doing the act (or even if one does not do the act).

Desiring is still an act. So, this will fall under "Not to do" commandment.

[Tj3]

Nah, Levitucus 18:22 said it's "Thou shalt not lie mankind as with womankind." This is an ACT and not Homosexuals per se.

You redefine the word "homosexual" because I posted a dictionary definition earlier which defines a homosexual as one who does the act. Also, taking one verse out of context of the rest of scripture and saying that scripture does not speak about homosexuals is not correct:

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

Why not? I believe being Homosexuals are by nature; not disease nor "self-made" nor a way of thinking. BEING homosexual is not a sin. Homosexual ACTS are. Icannot find anything in the bible stating that a certain State of Being is a sin. In th first place, God created nature.

See above, and let's look at your next comment...

Desiring is still an act. So, this will fall under "Not to do" commandment.

So if a person has a homosexual orientation, and since scripture is clear that the homosexual act is a sin, then by your own logic, homosexuality is a sin.

Though your claim that a desire is an act is flawed:

------------------------------------------------------------
De·sire (dĭ-zīr') Pronunciation Key
Tr.v. de·sired, de·sir·ing, de·sires

1. To wish or long for; want.
2. To express a wish for; request.

n.

1. A wish or longing.
2. A request or petition.
3. The object of longing: My greatest desire is to go back home.
4. Sexual appetite; passion.


[Middle English desiren, from Old French desirer, from Latin dēsīderāre : dē-, de- + sīdus, sīder-, star.]
De·sir'er n.

Synonyms: These verbs mean to have a strong longing for: desire peace; coveted the new convertible; craving fame and fortune; wanted a drink of water; got all she wished.


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source

------------------------------------------------------------

[Criado]

So if a person has a homosexual orientation, and since scripture is clear that the homosexual act is a sin, then by your own logic, homosexuality is a sin.

I think you're twisting my words. I am very clear with what I said "Homosexual per se (by nature)" is not sin. Homosexuality is a practice and therefore a sin. Homosexual per se is not a sin.

Just I have said, I do not believe that Homosexual is acquired mere orientation but nature. One cannot be adulterer without, aldultering; one cannot be drunkard withut, drinking. One is not born adulterer nor drunkard.

But can one be homosexual without Homosexual Acts? Are homosexuals born or made? I think this is a vital question needs answering. Otherwise, we'll just go in circles.

I have talked to some homosexuals before, they say it's innate. One pointed out "Who wants to be ridiculed? If I am to choose, I would rather be a man or a woman".

With regards to desire, please read Revelation 20:12 and please tell me if man is to be judged according also to their desire.

[Tj3]

I think you're twisting my words. I am very clear with what I said "Homosexual per se (by nature)" is not sin. Homosexuality is a practice and therefore a sin. Homosexual per se is not a sin.

Just I have said, I do not believe that Homosexual is acquired mere orientation but nature.

Show me this distinction in scripture.

One cannot be adulterer without, aldultering; one cannot be drunkard withut, drinking.

Jesus disagrees. That was the point of his sermon in Matthew 5. One does not sin merely by committing the act.

One is not born adulterer nor drunkard.

One is not born a homosexual either Paul says in His first letter to the Corinthians that some of them had been homosexuals and were changed when they were saved.

With regards to desire, please read Revelation 20:12 and please tell me if man is to be judged according also to their desire.

One cannot take a single verse out of context and ignore what else scripture says.

Matt 5:21-23
21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder,' and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment. 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.
NKJV

Matt 5:27-30
27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
NKJV

Jesus is God. Are you saying that He erred?

[Criado]

I honestly cannot understand how you define an ACT. Is it not getting angry without reason an act? Is it not looking with a lustful eyes an act as well?

I Corinthians 6 refers to effiminate, a man who dresses like women; not the one who have feelings to man rather a woman. Please check the Greek translation.

Homosexuals have definitely power over their acts and clothings, but do they have power to change their preference for man over woman?

[arcura]

Criado,
There are good acts and evil acts.
Generally speaking they are physical, but I believe that there are also mental acts done with thought.
Yes there are those former homosexuals who have not only stopped homo acts, but have learned to love a woman.
Some of those can be found in posts on the internet.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

I honestly cannot understand how you define an ACT. Is it not getting angry without reason an act? Is it not looking with a lustful eyes an act as well?

It is not my definition - it is how it is defined in English and in scripture. An act is something done physically with your body.

What are "lustful eyes"? Do you eyes change in some way? A man can look at a girl with the same eyes, and the same light entering his eyes and not sin. But when the orientation of his thoughts change to be one of lust, then the sin of adultery has occurred.

That act of adultery differs. It is taking the girl physically and committing an a sinful physical act with her. But whether it is a mental orientation or a phsyical act, it is the same sin according to Jesus.

[Criado]

Criado,
Generally speaking they are physical, but I believe that there are also mental acts done with thought.

This is actually my point Fred but it seems Tj3 believe that there's no such thing as mental acts.

It is not my definition - it is how it is defined in English and in scripture. An act is something done physically with your body.

I disagree. As far as English and scripture is concern, there is such thing as mental acts.

What are "lustful eyes"? Do you eyes change in some way? A man can look at a girl with the same eyes, and the same light entering his eyes and not sin. But when the orientation of his thoughts change to be one of lust, then the sin of adultery has occurred.

This is exactly the mental acts.

Yes there are those former homosexuals who have not only stopped homo acts, but have learned to love a woman.
Some of those can be found in posts on the internet.

Sorry, Fred, I do not wish to dismiss this but I honestly don't know these people. I even don't even know if they have vested interest in posting this over the internet. But, one this is I know, due to my inquisitive of their being, all of the person I talked to before (old classmates, officemates , friends and friends of friends) who are gay told me that their affection over man than women is not something they just made; it is uncontrollable feeling. They even tell me it's from childhood. Thus, I believe that it is their nature. What is of nature, we cannot control. (Romans 9:20-21)

[arcura]

Criado,
Never-the-less that are those who claim to have made the change, difficult as it is.
Fred

[Tj3]

This is actually my point Fred but it seems Tj3 believe that there's no such thing as mental acts.

It is a moot point one way or the other. If it is an acts, then it would still be a sin. If it is not, Jesus said that it was a sin even if the physical act did not take place. Even if you prefer to use a definition other than the dictionary definition, nothing changes.