[bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE]

Men don't go to strip clubs to just "look," they go there to be turned on as well. What's the point of looking at something if there is no satisfaction from it?

[smoothy]

Men don't go to strip clubs to just "look," they go there to be turned on as well. What's the point of looking at something if there is no satisfaction from it?

And being a woman you KNOW this about mens thoughts exactly how? And it differs from a woman window shopping when she doesn't want to buy anything exactly how?

An even better analogy... why should a woman want to read romance novels and watch any of the soap operas on TV daily? After all that's no different than a guy watching a nude woman dance that he will never be able to touch, much less be with.

[kp2171]

Why does my wife like reading erotica? Shouldn't she get every bit of mental stimulation from me? Shouldn't I alone inspire her to the throes of deep passion and desire?

Why does she need more friends than just me? Aren't I the end all, be all? What is she seeking out that I cannot give?

Rhetorical questions, of course, and I suspect in the end we will just disagree. Personally, I don't go to strip clubs and don't chase down loads of porn. My wife doesn't like either and I can live without. Its not a battle I feel the need to fight.

But I am not threatened by her being friends with others, just as I'm not upset that she likes an occasional boddice ripper, or even a flat out compilation of short erotic stories. Should I be upset that shed rather see me in a tight tshirt than a baggy sweatshirt? I'm the same guy under there... so why is the primal response to visual cues bad?

Or its just bad when it isn't that one person you are with out of six billion people on the earth?

You cannot play both sides of the situation. Why is it hard to accept that a man might find a woman attractive, whether he is with her or not? Yes, we are visual apes and, yes, its often embarrassing how much the visual cues get right into our brains.

Dancing turns on my lover, as it does the same for me... but she doesn't have to only dance with me. So... is dancing with other men "wrong"? Some would say "yes" some would say "of course not"...

Every single time I go to a ballpark, I have the same rush of energy. The same visual stimulations, and anticipation.

And yes... if a man sees a woman he finds attractive, there's often a primal wondering accompanying that... it isn't just attaching a label of "pretty"... there are physiological changes in blood pressure, heart rate, brain activity. Even wondering what she might smell like or feel like. Its all but a mental reflex.

When you can find a way to rewire the male mind and alter often subconscious physiological responses, well, ill be scared.

I see attractive women all the time. I'm not ashamed. Not even when I feel that primal urge to chase. I've never cheated on one woman. Not once.

Oddly enough, every woman I've ever loved has cheated on me. Extreme case, sure, but please don't assume because a man get an erection tied to visual stimulation that the man is fundamentally broken.

I try to be polite. Ill talk to your face. But if you are wearing makeup I like... if that pushup bra you bought does all it advertises... if you painted your toes and fingernails and I notice. Uhm... what... am I supposed to find some way to ignore this?

I recognize it. Accept it. Manage it. And move on.

Now.. I do understand some of the point being made... you accept that a man can find a woman attractive for physical reasons... you do not accept that he should find any other woman sexually interesting... whether she's the stripper at a bar, the bikini clad girl at the beach, or the woman with the low cut blouse on the elevator.

I'm sorry... we can choose where we go for mental stim to some degree... and like I said, I've steered clear of some of those for my mate, but really... the primal urge id feel looking at an erotic dancer isn't all that different from the same urge id feel if a woman's skirt got caught by the wind and I saw her panties and more of her body than shed like to bare.

Unless you want to wear burkas and put me in blinders, that primal excitement is just a part of being alive for most men.

[bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE]

So Smoothy, why would you go to a strip joint?

Your analogy doesn't make sense:

Women don't see the soap opera men naked, they don't see the men in the erotica books naked either BUT men do see strippers somewhat if not fully naked and men do see women in pornagraphy naked.

Women also get stimulated by the naked body of a male, but we don't turn into vicious pigs.

[kp2171]

I thought you were upset about the mental stimulation... the arousal...

So if a woman is aroused by erotica, is she also a "vicious pig?"

Or must the stimulation be visual and with skin showing?

[Synnen]

So Smoothy, why would you go to a strip joint?

Your analogy doesn't make sense:

Women don't see the soap opera men naked, they don't see the men in the erotica books naked either BUT men do see strippers somewhat if not fully naked and men do see women in pornagraphy naked.

Women also get stimulated by the naked body of a male, but we don't turn into vicious pigs.

Whoa whoa whoa---

Your last line tells me a WHOLE lot about YOU.

Men don't turn into vicious pigs because they see more skin than their woman would like them to.

The ones that are vicious pigs about it are the ones that are vicious pigs anyway.

So women don't SEE men naked in bodice rippers--well, they IMAGINE them naked. Or I do, anyway.

And it's not the nakedness that is the problem. Guys don't want women watching soap operas and reading bodice rippers because --please note the irony here--it gives women an unrealistic idea of what romance is.

Just like porn/strippers (in the argument sometimes given against them) give men an unrealistic idea of what sex or the female body should be like.

Frankly, I'm not going to wear a burkha and outlaw strip clubs because too many women don't have enough self-confidence to deal with their man LOOKING (just looking, not cheating, not touching, certainly not ing) at another woman.

[bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE]

And I will say again:

Women don't see the soap opera men naked, they don't see the men in the erotica books naked either BUT men do see strippers somewhat if not fully naked and men do see women in pornagraphy naked.

There is a difference between imagining and going to "look" at the real thing. I see as a sign of disrespect.

[blingaru]

I agree that it is very disrespectful. If you're a single guy, go nuts, who cares, you have no one to hurt. But if your girlfriend or wife is hurt or offended by strip clubs, there is absolutely no reason why you need to go and inflict that hurt on her. Whether the man sees it or not, it is a sign of disrespect to the one he's committed to.

[kp2171]

So is physical infidelity worse than emotional infidelity?

[bEaUtIfUlbRuNeTtE]

Depends on what you mean by "emotional."

Do you mean emotional with another man/woman, or emotional over a book or movie?

[Synnen]

Oooooh... if a man is turned on because of a MOVIE---isn't that the same thing as a woman getting emotional about a movie?

So PORN is okay, but not strippers? By your reasoning, I mean.

[smoothy]

So Smoothy, why would you go to a strip joint?

Your analogy doesn't make sense:

Women don't see the soap opera men naked, they don't see the men in the erotica books naked either BUT men do see strippers somewhat if not fully naked and men do see women in pornagraphy naked.

Women also get stimulated by the naked body of a male, but we don't turn into vicious pigs.

Women watching soap operas and romance novels for the very same reasons men go to strip clubs when you compensate for how each gender responds to stimulai.


Would I go to a strip club? Yes... I have and do from time to time... In fact I sometimes bring my wife along too, I just don't have the free time to do it frequently.

And your comment about men at stip clubs turning into viscious pigs shows your bias here, and your obvious misconceptions... incidently, ever see women at a male stip club? They are 20 times worse than men at any mens club.

[smoothy]

I agree that it is very disrespectful. If you're a single guy, go nuts, who cares, you have no one to hurt. But if your girlfriend or wife is hurt or offended by strip clubs, there is absolutely no reason why you need to go and inflict that hurt on her. Whether the man sees it or not, it is a sign of disrespect to the one he's committed to.

If a woman is that insecure... then that's her problem to deal with, not mine. Its controlling behaviour to demand what your significant other does for recreation assuming they aren't sleeping with their hobby.

I can go to strip clubs when I want... alone or with my wife, I even have some female friends that are nothing BUT friends... and know what... my wife isn't all paranoid and scizo about it because she knows exactly where she stands in my life... and doesn't spend her time worrying about something that isn't happening.

In other words my wife suffers from no lack of self esteme. In fact she ozzes self esteme.

[blingaru]

I don't feel it's a self esteem issue. You could be the most confidant person in the world and still find strip clubs to be offensive. You could also have the self esteem of a floor mat and be totally fine with them. It's not a simple black and white issue. If a person is offended and disrespected by racial jokes, is it "controlling" to ask them to stop making those jokes because it's disrespectful? Definitely not.

[Synnen]

Wait... so now strip clubs are equal to a racial joke?

Honey--I know women who have worked in strip clubs. It's a JOB, and one that pays a LOT more than most jobs you can get without a master's degree.

If you don't like them, then don't go. But don't project MORALITY (for that's what it is--it offends your MORALS, not your sense of discrimination) onto everyone else.

I think that drinking and driving is waaaaaay worse than strip clubs. However, I don't think bars should be shut down simply because there are morons out there that are idiots and drink and drive.

[kp2171]

Not sure how much more ill volley back and forth... personally I think the less "external" stim you use outside of your partner, the better. Fewer "crutches"... but some people, like on the boards here, do a great job of being able to focus on their lover while using other aids and interests... for other couples, it just doesn't work well. But I won't label most activities as right or wrong just because I don't do them.

That said... explain the difference between a naked woman in a movie and a naked woman on stage... a person could rent or buy or probably download explicit media about a porn star coming soon to a stage near you.

Leave porn alone... look at any actress who takes her clothes off in any movie. Most of the time, its eye candy. Most of the time, it isn't crucial to the script. So... boycott all movies with nudity that isn't crucial to the storyline? If no, why not? Any man who finds women attractive will respond to that visual stim with a similar primal urge.

Is it the distance? A dancer on stage being in the same room... is that the line?

Time to ban bikinis from beaches... cause a good number of them don't leave much to the imagination when wet.

[blingaru]

I'm not sure why you're taking such offense to what I said. I don't recall comparing strip clubs to anything immoral. My point above and all along has been that some people are offended by them and some are not. You are not and that's fine. Some people are, and that's fine too. If someone finds something offensive and disrespectful, it is their right to feel that way. A loving partner should be supportive of that. If he/she is not, then they aren't the right partner.

[kp2171]

Most people who write in here with concerns about strip clubs or porn often include something like "why am i not enough"... which does play into self esteem.

Some might say "it is just disgusting and i wont accept it"... but many do have the "why does he seem to want more than me" question quite commonly.

[kp2171]

My point above and all along has been that some people are offended by them and some are not...

If someone finds something offensive and disrespectful, it is their right to feel that way. A loving partner should be supportive of that. If he/she is not, then they aren't the right partner.

I agree with much of this, with some wiggle room. Like I said, I think there are battles that you choose to fight or choose to walk away. I'm "supportive" of my partners preferences and have no regrets about that...

What one cannot do is find "fault" in a partner and stay with them and continue to complain. At some point you choose to stay and not be a victim... so if the OP'er said "im with a great guy but he goes to clubs"... at some point she chooses to accept it or walk.

[blingaru]

i agree with much of this, with some wiggle room. like i said, i think there are battles that you choose to fight or choose to walk away. im "supportive" of my partners preferences and have no regrets about that...

what one cannot do is find "fault" in a partner and stay with them and continue to complain. at some point you choose to stay and not be a victim... so if the OP'er said "im with a great guy but he goes to clubs"... at some point she chooses to accept it or walk.

I absolutely agree with you. Ultimately, I think we need to find partners that fulfill us in all ways. If you are the type that finds strip clubs disrespectful, then you need a partner that shares those values. If your spouse frequents them and doesn't seem to care how you feel about it, then that's not a healthy relationship. Likewise, if you like to frequent those places and your partner does to, more power to you. I think that different people have very different perceptions about what is cheating, or what is disrespectful. There is going to be a lot of variance on these issues... we need partners that are sensitive to these feelings.