[GUARDIAN240]

hello all, I am very new here and need some advise about the electrical in my very old house of which I have replaced, am replacing, and will replace.

all the new wire that has been installed and will be installed is 4x10 awg, In most situations for example the wiring for the bathroom which I had to rebuild from the ground up, first was wired with the shared neutral wiring format using red for the three GFCI outlets and black for the two bulb cealing light and four bulb vanity light system, until I realized the gcfi outlets would simply not work wired this way.

fortunately I ran the wiring through pvc conduit so I pulled it all back out and added a seporate neutral and ground for the gcfi circuits, thus deleting shared neutral now every thing works just fine.

but on other areas of the house I have shared neutral systems such as in the bed room where the red controls a single outlet dedicated strictly for a window AC and the black controlling two outlets (one on my side of the room the other in the wifes)

this system works just fine the red in hooked to a 20 amp breaker and the black is hooked to a 20 amp breaker both lined up acrost from each other in the breaker box hooked up the seporate poles, so they get a 110 feed and not a 220.

I started a shared neutral system for the kitchen and living room ceiling lights, and already have completed the kitchen portion on black which includes the back porch light, and kitchen cealing fan with three light fixture, all bulbs are energy savers. And this system runs on one 20 amp breaker.

I was getting ready to go into the attic and ready the wiring for the front porch light and living room ceiling fan with three light fixture, prepairing them to run on the red wire to the 20 amp breaker dedicated for the living room lights,

when I ran acrost a post on here about floresant lights not working with shared neutrals, I figured that I may have misread but I got so confused that I stopped work to get advise since every bulb I run in the house now are the floresant energy saver bulbs.

I will stop here just to give every one an idea of what I am doing and have done thus far and awaite imput, suggestions etc, thanks all

[KISS]

Loose the shared neutrals.

AFCI's (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter) like GFCI's don't like shared neutrals.

AFCI's are required in bedrooms and living rooms. They look for a spark signiture and trip. Usually they are combines with GFCI's.

[Tev]

this system works just fine the red in hooked to a 20 amp breaker and the black is hooked to a 20 amp breaker both lined up acrost from each other in the breaker box hooked up the seporate poles, so they get a 110 feed and not a 220.

This is potentially dangerous. Since the breakers are both on the same leg the neutral is forced to carry the full load of both circuits. In this case a potential 40 amps. Wired to opposite legs it would never be more than 20 amps. I would suggest you fix this sooner rather than later. The most quick fix is to put the two circuits on opposite legs. Not to be a jerk but my next bit of advice is hire an electrician.

[donf]

Question, why are you using 10/4 AWG cable to wire your house?

General lighting can be done with 14/2 (15 Amp). 12/2 is used for 20 Amp.

Yet you are choosing to use a 30 amp cable and do everything with multi wire branch circuits. What are you really trying to do?

[GUARDIAN240]

hello all and thank you for the imput, as for the first response, could you tell me if AFCI's are a special outlet or like a breaker? I am not fimilliar with theise.

as for the second response, I oplogise if I mis wrote, but I do have the mentioned breakers on different poles, and lined up acrost from each other in the breaker box.

as for the 3rd responder, I was lead to believe the heaviest gauge I could buy would cut down on electric flow resistance and lower the risk of fire thus is why I went with 10 gauge wire, picking 10X4 was due to cost effectiveness and being told by my know it all cousin that I can get more out of my wire buck doing shared neutral hook ups. And at the time there was a deal on a roll of 250 foot 10x4 wire at my hardware supplier

fortunately due to rat and other varments I have chosen to run all wiring from breaker box to source through sealed pvc pipe so I am able to release the wires from the orange outer case and use as many or as little wires nessesary for a particular hook up, for example for the bathroom the three gcfi outlets are wired with its own red hot wire, white neutral wire, and ground wire, and the bathroom lighting and switches are wired using its own black hot wire, white neutral wire, and ground wire. The same as running 2 cables with 10x3, and yes the red and the black are on seporare breakers and on seporate poles even though I deleted shared neutral in the bathroom so the gcfi's would work.

if it is highly advisable, I will delete shared neutrals every where in the house, again since I am using pvc conduit I have the ability to run neutrals with each seporate circuit, rather than using shared neutrals.

[KISS]

AFCI Fact sheet: http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/afc...S/afcifac8.PDF

They are usually implemented as a breaker.

Make sure your devices connections are rated for #10 wire, other wise you may have to pigtail them with #12.

Cheap 4 conductor could actually be useful because a lot of automation devices require a neutral in the switch box. Actually, you may have 10-3 or 10-3 with ground. Usually ground is assumed. Bet you have 3 insulated conductors and one bare ground wire. Correct?

Delete ALL shared neutrals.

[GUARDIAN240]

Correct 3 insulated [ red hot, black hot, white neutral ] and the bare wire [ground]

[creahands]

Hi guardian240

It may have been less expensive to use B/X wire and definitely less labor intense.

Lose the shared neutral

Good luck
Chuck

[Tev]

If your breakers are across from each other then they are almost definitely not on different poles. Opposite hot busses are usually alternating from top to bottom. Use your voltmeter to check, between the two hots on these circuits you want to see 240v. If it reads 0v you should not be sharing the neutral on those circuits.

Personally, I'd do as the others have said and eliminate the shared neutrals. Your home isn't the place to learn how wrong it can go when done incorrectly.

[GUARDIAN240]

Thank you to all the imput and direction, I am in the middle of fixing mishaps I had made under the direction of my cousin whom oviously don't know electrical as he has said he did, either way I am now deleting all shared neutral circuits, luckily I hadn't had too many.

Um when my electric stove line was replaced, after explaining what I was replacing and how far away the stove was from the breaker box, the people at my local hardware sent me home with a piece of 3 line 6 awg cable to hook up the stove, is this too thick of a cable or suitable for the stove and do I need to use the same gauge when hooking up our electric clothes dryer?

Lastly, when the wiring was redone for my 220 vac hotwater heater we used the 10/3 plus ground cable I mentioned that I am installing all through the house, my cousin did the connections and they were done as such, red and black wires to the positive hwh terminals, white used as ground, and then used the bare wire and hooked it up to the outer case as a case ground, I have not had any problems yet that I am aware of but as I am realizing a lot of mistakes, I better seek advise on how the hot water heater wires were hooked up,

Thanks again to all

[KISS]

I now think you should loose the sidekick too.

In the beginning of this section there is a way to read the NEC code online for free. I suggest you go there.

Water heater: Just tape the white as unused at both ends.

#6: Usually for 50A, #8 for 40A. Length, conduit and other factors play a role too.

Certain loads, like loads that are going to be on for more than 3 hrs at a time, such as space heating require de-rating. The service has to be upgraded to 1.25 of that required.

Modern appliances are usually requiring 4-wire service. (L1, L2,N and ground). This is happening with stoves and dryers. Even gas water heater are requiring 120V for power vent operation.

Since you are using that 10/3 with ground, it would be best to:
white : neutral
black: =hot
Red: Switched hot
Ground: ground

That opens, a lot of nice things up for you.

Examples:
Timers at wall switches that require a neutral to function.
Fan controls that control the fan and light separately.
IR fan controls that require a neutral at the box.

Anyway, it's probably too late and too expensive, but there are central lighting systems. They require home runs to the controller and all of the lighting is then controlled via a home automation system.

http://www.lutron.com/CMS400/default...melightcontrol

[GUARDIAN240]

Had to stop work on the deleting shared neutrals on the bathroom circuits, before I continue do I need to run a sepporate ground wire also? For example red, white, ground circuit #1. black white ground circuit #2

If it is ovious, though I did have non shared neutrals in the bathroom wiring itself, upon double checking, I found that from the breaker box to the bathroom main junction box the cable was ran like shared, oviously a screw up which I am fixing as soon as I'm sure about the grounds. Power has already been cut off and will not be restored till wired correctly

[GUARDIAN240]

This is in addition to my latest post and related to such, I found more screw ups in the electrical line from the switch box to the cealing junction box.
On this circuit I have two vanity lights that have two 60 watt equivalent energy saver bulbs each (4 total) which wires to wall switch #2
I also have a ceiling light which has two 60 watt equivalent energy saver bulbs and is wired to switch #1
There is one more item up there, a capped and taped off harness for a vent fan once one can be purchased and this is wired down to switch #3
But here is where I think I made a potentially fatal mistake, all the noted items are grounded together and share the same single 10 awg ground wire that hooks up in the wall junction box where my outlets which are on a seporate circuit are attached to and share the ground wire before it makes it way to the breaker box. Isn't this too much on one ground wire??
Secondly I found a shared neutral situatuon up on the cealing box as well, all the items I listed for the cealing are sharing one neutral...
As this site has helped me to be more knowlegable I am seporating the neutrals and adding a neutral from breaker box to the vent fan circuit, but can I get away with the vanity and ceiling lights remaining on the same neutral or should they be sepporated as well? And just to clarify, the vanity lights, ceiling light, and vent fan wiring, are hooked to a single 20 amp breaker, any suggestions where that is concerned?

I am so glad this is the only area where I have used any shared grounds and neutrals, once this is all corrected I hopefully shouldn't find any more mistakes. I realize the wife was rushing me to get the lights working in the bathroom but I did the work, I am responcible to correct the mistakes.

[KISS]

I got confused when I read your post. I'm not even sure you know what a shared neutral really is:

If you have a bunch of outlets with the neutrals connected together, each outlet "shares" a neutral, but it's not a "shared neutral".

I you ran a light with another circuit ans ran only one wire and connected the neutral to the outlet circuit, that neutral is shared and is a no no.

Neutral sharing occurs when there are 2 circuits involved (2 breakers) and only one neutral back to the panel.

A fan/light/and outlet in a bathroom on a single circuit does not share a neutral.

Same with grounds. They should not be coming from multiple circuits.

Does that make sense?

[GUARDIAN240]

OK I think I got it now, my confusion began realizing I had a shared neutral between the two different circuits (3 gfci outlets on one 20 amp breaker) and (the lighting and vent fan on another 20 amp breaker).

I am gathering I need to have 1 hot, 1 neutral, and one ground per circuit, having two circuits I will be running from the breaker box to the bathroom junction box, 2 hot wires (hooked to the different breakers) 2 neutral wires (hooked to the neutral buss bar) and 2 ground wires (hooked to the ground buss bar.

Does this sound correct?
One group of ground, neutral, and a hot hooked to a single 20 amp breaker can hook to all three gfci outlets.

And the other group of ground, neutral, and a hot wire hooked to a sepporate 20 amp breaker can hook to the vanity lights, cealing light, and vent fan.

If this is correct. Then my ceiling wiring was accualy done correctly with

The neutrals and ground wires from vanity lights, ceiling light, and vent fan, ran as such

The 3 ground wires, wire capped to a ground wire that runs down to the switch box (grounding the switches) then running to the breaker panel.

The 3 ceiling neutrals capped together to a neutral that runs straight to the breaker box.

The hot wires from each item runs down to its own switch, and the 3 switches are fed power by a single hot wire that runs from a 20 amp breaker, in the breaker box.

[KISS]

Yes. I knew there was some confusion there.

If the boxes are metal, they need to be grounded too. Usually the ground goes to the switch/outlet and then to the box. Don't rely on the switch/outlet to ground the box via the attachment screw. That's why they make those little green pigtails that you can buy in various configurations (ends).

[GUARDIAN240]

220 air contioner help any one?
Opon needing to replace the LCDI plug on our living room AC with heater I have been looking around and frustrated with pricing and avalibility for the very same TRC brand plug with 12 awg wires in the cable, that our kenmore AC came with,

The operating voltage of the unit is 230/208 Vac the wattage on AC is 1,850/1,800 and on Heater is 3,670/3,100 watts

I happened acrost an affordable and brand new LCDI plug assembily put out by Tower Mfg. Corp. which has 12 awg wires in the cable, and is rated as such 240 Vac 4800 Watts 20 Amps

Would it seem reasonable that this LCDI plug and cord set will be a suitable replacement for our AC/Heater?