[Akoue]

Romans 8.19-22 reads:

v.19: For creation awaits with eager expectation the revelation of the children of God;

v.20: for creation was made subject to futility, not of its own accord but because of the one who subjected it, in hope

v.21: that creation itself would be set free from slavery to corruption and share in the glorious freedom of the children of God.

v.22: We know that all creation is groaning in labor pains even until now...

a) How do you understand this passage?
b) What does this tell us about redemption?
I have heard it said that Christ came to save human beings and only human beings. But this passage seems to suggest that Christ's redemption is not reserved only for humanity but for the whole of creation. Is that true? If it is true, from what does creation (apart from humanity) need to be redeemed and how is it to receive its redemption?
c) What exactly is it that "creation awaits with eager expectation"? Why is "all creation groaning" and for what?
d) What, if anything, does this passage tell us about Christ's mission?

[jakester]

Akoue - to better understand this section, I believe it helps to see how it fits in its broader context.

Paul has been arguing up until this point that "life in the Spirit" brings freedom from condemnation and an inheritance in the kingdom of God—those who are led by the spirit of God are heirs to the kingdom. However, Paul clarifies this by saying that the life of the believer will be marked with suffering "...in order that we may also be glorified with him." Now that brings us to your point of focus.

So with the idea of suffering in view, these verses are giving more clarity to Paul's idea of suffering. The world itself is in bondage to the futility inherent in God's creation. There is no paradise on earth. God is the one who subjected it to this futility... Solomon refers to it as vanity (in Ecclesiastes), which may or not be an accurate translation from Hebrew (perhaps futility is more apt, I don't know). At any rate, the creation itself is waiting to be redeemed along with mankind from the same bondage. Peter tells us that the earth will be burned with a fervent heat and that God will begin a new creation, the next time God creates what he intends to it will be glorious because suffering will be absent from it.

Okay, so I have attempted already to answer question a), above.

Question b) what does this tell us about redemption? I think it tells us that Christ's redemption is all encompassing, meaning that his death and resurrection came to bring about an existence for his creation that will be utterly glorious and free from corruption. So in a very real sense, his redemption was for his entire creation. However, akoue, the central characters in this redemption story were God and the firstfruits of his creation (mankind), the man Jesus being the head since he is the Messiah. So for the animal lovers of the world, I don't think this passage is giving credence to any idea about dogs and cats being co-heirs to the kingdom of God. I think all Paul is attempting to convey here is that creation itself is in bondage but God is going to free the whole of his creation from this bondage, not just mankind.

Question c) What exactly is it that "creation awaits with eager expectation"? Paul answers this question: “…for the revealing of the sons of God.” God's ultimate plan is to redeem mankind and make them into glorious creatures, free from corruption. Again, because man is the crown of God's creation and the subject of his story of redemption, until man is redeemed, the rest of creation must wait for God to bring this chapter to a close. I think this is Paul's argument.

Question c) ii “Why is "all creation groaning" and for what?” I think some of the questions you ask sort of overlap. Creation is groaning because it has been subject to futility. Solomon's understanding of life in Ecclesiastes is that life is truly futile. There is no lasting joy in this life. There are good days, yes; but ultimately, goodness and joy seem to escape us. We are evil and the world we live in is corrupt, so for that reason people and creation groan.

Question d) “What, if anything, does this passage tell us about Christ's mission?” One word…redemption. Titus 2, says it best: “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

These are my two cents.

[Akoue]

jakester,

Thanks so much for taking the time to write such a thoughtful, and thought-provoking, reply. It is exactly what I was hoping for when I posted the question. Actually, it's more, since I never expected anyone to take up each of my questions in turn. (As you say, quite charitably I might add, the questions do "overlap" a bit.)

I need to spend some time thinking about what you've written before asking some follow-up questions (questions, not objections), but I didn't want to postpone registering my appreciation. Another first-rate post!

[gromitt82]

Akoue,
I would suggest you visit this web:

Does Romans 8:19-22 Refer to the Cursed Creation?

There you can see an interesting point of view on the above.
However, let me tell you that in his letters to the Romans, S. Paul was trying to speak basically about their sins. But this is beside the point. What I think you should bear in mind is that any answer you may receive to your questions IS NOT and CANNOT BE a definite answer. Christ’s mission on Earth is clearly that of redeeming man from his original sin to allow him to achieve Salvation. This is what Jesus says in the Gospels.
But we know nothing of GOD’s designs for “the ways of GOD are inscrutable” and we shall only know for sure if we are, one day, lucky enough to deserve being called to enjoy perfect happiness in GOD’s Kingdom!

[Akoue]

jakester,

I'd like to thank you again for your post. I've given it quite a bit of thought and would like to try to bring together some of my thoughts in the light of what you've said.

I've been torn between two ways of understanding "the one who subjected it". On one reading, it would be Adam, on account of whose sin creation was cursed (Gen.3.15-17). Viewed in that light, the hope of creation would be for the restoration promised to Noah "between myself and you and every living creature" (Gen.9.12-13). On another reading, it is God who "subjected" creation, and this seems to be the way you read it. I am inclined to favor this reading as well. On this reading, although God cursed it on account of Adam's sin, he still gave it the hope of sharing in human redemption. This, I think, accords with what you've said, namely that the central characters of the drama of fall and redemption and final glory are God and humanity. But I think I am parting ways with you inasmuch as it is my understanding that creatures other than human beings are to participate in the glory that awaits. (I'm interested to hear your thoughts about that.)

This leads me to believe that creation's hope is to be relieved of dissolution and decay (corruption). And this is also to be delivered from contingency (I think you are saying something similar with your remarks about futility in Ecclesiates--but please correct me if I'm wrong).

My sense, then, is that what is being talked about in Rom.8 is a cosmic event, a cosmic victory for Christ, and a cosmic return to the glory of God. And this makes me wonder about the cosmic significance of what some like to call "the Christ-event". If sin degraded not just humanity but all of creation; if, that is, sin has impacted the whole of creation in a fundamental way; then it would seem that the coming of the Messiah was the remedy applied to the whole of the created order. (This is not, of course, to suggest universal salvation--although you can kind of see where people get that. It may be wrong, but it's not just stupid.)

Anyway, these thoughts should all be read as followed by a paranthetical question mark. I don't mean to come across as someone with a theory. I very much hope to hear people's thoughts about this (any or all of it).

[Akoue]

Akoue,
I would suggest you visit this web:

Does Romans 8:19-22 Refer to the Cursed Creation?

There you can see an interesting point of view on the above.
However, let me tell you that in his letters to the Romans, S. Paul was trying to speak basically about their sins. But this is beside the point. What I think you should bear in mind is that any answer you may receive to your questions IS NOT and CANNOT BE a definite answer. Christ’s mission on Earth is clearly that of redeeming man from his original sin to allow him to achieve Salvation. This is what Jesus says in the Gospels.
But we know nothing of GOD’s designs for “the ways of GOD are inscrutable” and we shall only know for sure if we are, one day, lucky enough to deserve being called to enjoy perfect happiness in GOD’s Kingdom!

Thanks very much for your post, and for the link.

While I agree with you that Christ's earthly mission is to redeem humanity, I don't think that this is at all incompatible with a mission to redeem all of creation. The two seem quite compatible to me.

You may be right that there can be no "definite" answer to the question. I'm not sure I agree with you about that, but I certainly am alive to that very real possibility. But, even if there can be no definite answer, I think there is still much to be learned from asking, and trying to answer, the question. I know I've already learned from doing so. I hope others are as fotrunate as I have been in this regard.

One last thing. While you are right that we can never comprehend God's designs, I do believe we are called to strive to understand them to the best of our quite limited abilities. There's no shame in failure here. It's the search for truth that is important. And, like St. Augustine, I regard that as a kind of worship.

[arcura]

Akoue,
Thanks for asking that question.
After reading that which has been offered so far I am not yet ready to post answers.
I'm learning as it goes so far.
One thing that has popped into my head is the possibility of intelligent beings on other planets in this vast universe.
If so did Adam and Eve's sin effect them and If so why?
Your question are universal as is creation.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[jakester]

jakester,

I'd like to thank you again for your post. I've given it quite a bit of thought and would like to try to bring together some of my thoughts in the the light of what you've said.

I've been torn between two ways of understanding "the one who subjected it". On one reading, it would be Adam, on account of whose sin creation was cursed (Gen.3.15-17). Viewed in that light, the hope of creation would be for the restoration promised to Noah "between myself and you and every living creature" (Gen.9.12-13). On another reading, it is God who "subjected" creation, and this seems to be the way you read it. I am inclined to favor this reading as well. On this reading, although God cursed it on account of Adam's sin, he still gave it the hope of sharing in human redemption. This, I think, accords with what you've said, namely that the central characters of the drama of fall and redemption and final glory are God and humanity. But I think I am parting ways with you inasmuch as it is my understanding that creatures other than human beings are to participate in the glory that awaits. (I'm interested to hear your thoughts about that.)

This leads me to believe that creation's hope is to be relieved of dissolution and decay (corruption). And this is also to be delivered from contingency (I think you are saying something similar with your remarks about futility in Ecclesiates--but please correct me if I'm wrong).

My sense, then, is that what is being talked about in Rom.8 is a cosmic event, a cosmic victory for Christ, and a cosmic return to the glory of God. And this makes me wonder about the cosmic significance of what some like to call "the Christ-event". If sin degraded not just humanity but all of creation; if, that is, sin has impacted the whole of creation in a fundamental way; then it would seem that the coming of the Messiah was the remedy applied to the whole of the created order. (This is not, of course, to suggest universal salvation--although you can kind of see where people get that. It may be wrong, but it's not just stupid.)

Anyway, these thoughts should all be read as followed by a paranthetical question mark. I don't mean to come across as someone with a theory. I very much hope to hear people's thoughts about this (any or all of it).

Akoue – let me first just say that I truly appreciate the depth of the questions you are asking. Rarely do I find someone who genuinely and honestly wrestles with the text because based upon my experiences, conversations like these tend to be very dogmatic—people substantiate their views by referring to a text and rather juvenilely offering their argument for their position…I am certainly guilty of that, but I have learned that giving a rational argument for a position is really the most responsible and beneficial way to talk through these things and I certainly strive to that end. But I am most grateful for the spirit in which you are asking your questions.

Okay, I will attempt to answer your questions but if I don't cover everything, let me know.

First off, regarding who subjected creation to futility—yes, I believe it is God who subjected it. I do not subscribe to the idea of a cosmic law, a law that forces God to move in any certain direction with respect to his creation. In other words, there is a belief that because Adam sinned, the world was automatically forced into a chaotic state and God was helpless to stop the effects of Adam's sin. God did not need to do anything to his creation after Adam had sinned…God was not obligated to curse creation because of Adam's sin. God being the creator could do whatever he wished with his creation regardless of whether man obeyed him or not. To me, those who would read that Adam somehow subjected creation to futility espouse the cosmic law principle. We can talk more about this if I am not clear. For the sake of my argument, God subjected creation to futility after Adam's sin for a reason. Life on earth is a pedagogical tool in the hands of God to reveal that there is something wrong with us and with the world. When God pronounced curses upon Eve and then Adam, they would live with that understanding all of their lives: Eve would suffer in childbearing and Adam would feel the futility of life through a life of labor (hard work). But in the midst of these pronouncements, God gave us a clue as to how he intended to reverse this futility:

“…I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
and you shall bruise his heel.”

Most scholars would agree that this is the very first announcement of God's plan of redemption. The woman's offspring is God's Messiah: Yeshua (Yahweh's Salvation). The language regarding bruising of the head of the serpent and the heel of the offspring in my judgment, are references to Christ's death and Satan's defeat (his reign over this world would be usurped). When we look back over the whole of this story, the story itself is clearly one of redemption.

Secondly, regarding your comment: “But I think I am parting ways with you inasmuch as it is my understanding that creatures other than human beings are to participate in the glory that awaits. (I'm interested to hear your thoughts about that.)” I'm not sure I understand the distinction that you are making when you talk about “creatures other than human beings are to participate in the glory that awaits.” Let me try to answer what I think you are asking. Isaiah 11 is a prophecy of the day in which Christ rules over Israel as King. In this new creation, there is clearly something different about the creatures other than man:

There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse,
and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit.
2 And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,
the Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and might,
the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.
3 And his delight shall be in the fear of the Lord.
He shall not judge by what his eyes see,
or decide disputes by what his ears hear,
4 but with righteousness he shall judge the poor,
and decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth,
and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked.
5 Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist,
and faithfulness the belt of his loins.
6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together;
and a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra,
and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den.
9 They shall not hurt or destroy
in all my holy mountain;
for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.

The thought of creatures that were once predators and prey existing together in a manner like this is clearly remarkable. It can only be glorious.

Yes, I agree with your assertion that Romans 8 is describing a cosmic event. The whole of creation will be changed. II Peter describes the earth as being “…stored up for fire.” Some argue that the Second Law of Thermodynamics proves that this world is in a constant state of increasing entropy, so if that is a real phenomenon, then it could be an objective argument for the idea that God must make a new creation because he never intended this creation to remain forever. Christ's death and resurrection is the beginning of the final age, the last age before man enters into the Sabbath rest of God. We are not in that rest yet but we are told to persevere in the faith that we may enter into the rest of God (Hebrews 4):

“Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,

“As I swore in my wrath,
'They shall not enter my rest,'”
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said,

“They shall not enter my rest.”

Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”

For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.””

I hope I have addressed each of your questions. Again, let me know if I missed anything or if I have not clarified any of my points too well.

Again, these are my thoughts and my best arguments about how I am thinking about these things presently.

Sincerely.

[JoeT777]

Romans 8.19-22 reads:

v.19: For creation awaits with eager expectation the revelation of the children of God;

v.20: for creation was made subject to futility, not of its own accord but because of the one who subjected it, in hope

v.21: that creation itself would be set free from slavery to corruption and share in the glorious freedom of the children of God.

v.22: We know that all creation is groaning in labor pains even until now...

a) How do you understand this passage?
b) What does this tell us about redemption?
I have heard it said that Christ came to save human beings and only human beings. But this passage seems to suggest that Christ's redemption is not reserved only for humanity but for the whole of creation. Is that true? If it is true, from what does creation (apart from humanity) need to be redeemed and how is it to receive its redemption?
c) What exactly is it that "creation awaits with eager expectation"? Why is "all creation groaning" and for what?
d) What, if anything, does this passage tell us about Christ's mission?

Chapter 8 of Romans is doctrine to “walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.” We see that hope saves; 'we are saved by hope,” (Spe enim salvi facti sumus). Spes, the last resource available to men according to the traditions held in Rome at the time. Thus, being heirs, 'sons of God,' our suffering with Him is glorified – a blessing conferred to a soul united with God. “For I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come that shall be revealed in us.” (Rome 8:18) Man becomes vexed with his inability to transcend his condition of bondage in sin to a glory of the sons of God. On this account God took on man's vanity; a suffering mortal body cursed to wear the mantel of thorns. Lift your eyes to heaven, and look down to the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish like smoke, and the earth shall be worn away like a garment, and the inhabitants thereof shall perish in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my justice shall not fail. (Isaiah 51:6)

Thus, Paul laments, “For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity: not willingly, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope.” (Romans 8:19-20) However, in Christ that liberates the suffering of mankind is through hope in “his coming to a dignity, clothe even the servants with a brighter garment, to the glory of the son; so will God also clothe the creature with incorruption for the glorious liberty of the children.” (Chrysostom Romans, Hom. 14) Thus, man is freed, the soul becoming incorruptible in his hope in Christ. Paul then counsels that we not stoop lower than creation, having anguish in our concupiscence, not just anguish, rather a "clinging to these things but actually groaning in our delay for our adoption."

JoeT

[arcura]

jakester,
Thanks much for that.
It is very thought provoking and interesting.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[arcura]

JoeT,
I really like you post on that.
Like that of jakester's post it is though provoking and interesting,
Prace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

God was helpless

?

JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT777,
I really doubt that.
Fred

[Akoue]

JoeT777,
I really doubt that.
Fred

So does jakestar. That's the view he is rejecting.

[JoeT777]

So does jakestar. That's the view he is rejecting.

I must've misread it. Sorry.

JoeT

[Akoue]

Akoue – let me first just say that I truly appreciate the depth of the questions you are asking. Rarely do I find someone who genuinely and honestly wrestles with the text because based upon my experiences, conversations like these tend to be very dogmatic—people substantiate their views by referring to a text and rather juvenilely offering their argument for their position…I am certainly guilty of that, but I have learned that giving a rational argument for a position is really the most responsible and beneficial way to talk through these things and I certainly strive to that end. But I am most grateful for the spirit in which you are asking your questions.

Thank you for your kind words, jakester. I enjoy discussions with you as well. I also find rational discussion preferrable to the alternatives. Back and forth quotations of biblical passages on its own isn't nearly so helpful as reasoned discourse about those passages. I have found your posts very helpful and a pleasure to read and think about.

First off, regarding who subjected creation to futility—yes, I believe it is God who subjected it. I do not subscribe to the idea of a cosmic law, a law that forces God to move in any certain direction with respect to his creation. In other words, there is a belief that because Adam sinned, the world was automatically forced into a chaotic state and God was helpless to stop the effects of Adam’s sin. God did not need to do anything to his creation after Adam had sinned…God was not obligated to curse creation because of Adam’s sin. God being the creator could do whatever he wished with his creation regardless of whether man obeyed him or not. To me, those who would read that Adam somehow subjected creation to futility espouse the cosmic law principle. We can talk more about this if I am not clear. For the sake of my argument, God subjected creation to futility after Adam’s sin for a reason. Life on earth is a pedagogical tool in the hands of God to reveal that there is something wrong with us and with the world. When God pronounced curses upon Eve and then Adam, they would live with that understanding all of their lives: Eve would suffer in childbearing and Adam would feel the futility of life through a life of labor (hard work). But in the midst of these pronouncements, God gave us a clue as to how he intended to reverse this futility:

I agree that God was at no time compelled to act one way or another. But I'm not so sure that I want to reject altogether the idea of a cosmic law or cosmic order. I think it would be helpful--for me at least, and perhaps for others as well--to pause over this a bit. God's providence is a cosmic law, one that holds not just for humanity but for the whole of his creation. With sin something was introduced into the creation that wasn't there before. But what was that something? Sin is not, after all, just a label that is given to things that are bad, and it isn't just a psychological condition. Sin is a reality. The wrongful exercise of free will--whether by Satan and the fallen angels or by Adam and Eve and their progeny--impacts the whole of creation. So, I guess, part of my initial question--from what does creation long for redemption--is utlimately getting at the nature of sin. (I have to thank you for helping me see this. I wasn't aware that this was part of what I was asking until thinking about your posts brought it to the surface.)

So I suppose I would like to talk a bit more about what you've called "the cosmic law principle", if you're okay with that. I do agree with you that there is no law by which God is himself compelled; it's just not clear to me that this means there isn't a cosmic law that is in play in Rom.8. That said, though, I'm not entirely sure what to make of it, and so I'm not sure what to say about it. Any thoughts?

Most scholars would agree that this is the very first announcement of God’s plan of redemption. The woman’s offspring is God’s Messiah: Yeshua (Yahweh’s Salvation). The language regarding bruising of the head of the serpent and the heel of the offspring in my judgment, are references to Christ’s death and Satan’s defeat (his reign over this world would be usurped). When we look back over the whole of this story, the story itself is clearly one of redemption.

I agree.

Secondly, regarding your comment: “But I think I am parting ways with you inasmuch as it is my understanding that creatures other than human beings are to participate in the glory that awaits. (I'm interested to hear your thoughts about that.)” I’m not sure I understand the distinction that you are making when you talk about “creatures other than human beings are to participate in the glory that awaits.” Let me try to answer what I think you are asking. Isaiah 11 is a prophecy of the day in which Christ rules over Israel as King. In this new creation, there is clearly something different about the creatures other than man:

I was just thinking about all the other things that God made before he made man and woman. Mostly I'm thinking about animals, but I don't know that it needs to be limited to that. (Fred's interesting idea about the possibility of life on other planets comes to mind.)

The thought of creatures that were once predators and prey existing together in a manner like this is clearly remarkable. It can only be glorious.

Agreed. But I'm inclined to think that Rom.8 is pointing us to something beyond harmony. In Orthodoxy, for example, it is not uncommon to talk about a return to unity with the Trinity, a participation in the divinity. This strikes me as a very interesting, and not at all artificial, idea. On this way of thinking, Christ promises not just harmony with God and others but an even deeper unity with God, a unity that is to be enjoyed by the whole of creation (with the obvious exception of those who choose to reject God and so are damned). I'm not trying to defend this view, but I do think it may capture something deep.

Yes, I agree with your assertion that Romans 8 is describing a cosmic event. The whole of creation will be changed. II Peter describes the earth as being “…stored up for fire.” Some argue that the Second Law of Thermodynamics proves that this world is in a constant state of increasing entropy, so if that is a real phenomenon, then it could be an objective argument for the idea that God must make a new creation because he never intended this creation to remain forever.

That's an interesting idea. I'm really glad you mentioned it.

Thank you again for helping me think through this. I look forward to your next post.

Oh, and let's agree that we're working through this together. That way we can feel free to try out different ideas in order to see what works and what doesn't, without having to worry that we'll be forced into defending something we may only have presented as an idea we're trying out. I know I'm not ready to defend the ideas I've presented in this post. But I am trying them out to see whether they make sense. I'm always happy to get feedback on this.

[Akoue]

Ahh, Joe, it's good to see you back. Finally I have some time to respond to your post.

Chapter 8 of Romans is doctrine to “walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.” We see that hope saves; ‘we are saved by hope,” (Spe enim salvi facti sumus). Spes, the last resource available to men according to the traditions held in Rome at the time. Thus, being heirs, ‘sons of God,’ our suffering with Him is glorified – a blessing conferred to a soul united with God. “For I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come that shall be revealed in us.” (Rome 8:18) Man becomes vexed with his inability to transcend his condition of bondage in sin to a glory of the sons of God. On this account God took on man’s vanity; a suffering mortal body cursed to wear the mantel of thorns. Lift your eyes to heaven, and look down to the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish like smoke, and the earth shall be worn away like a garment, and the inhabitants thereof shall perish in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my justice shall not fail. (Isaiah 51:6)

I like what you say about our suffering uniting us to God. That puts another face on Rom.8 and, if I'm not misunderstanding, suggests that our suffering and "groaning" unites us both with God and with the creation which is also "groaning". I like that idea a lot. Also the point about vexation, frustration: This is something I hadn't paid enough attention to, I think.

Thus, Paul laments, “For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity: not willingly, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope.” (Romans 8:19-20) However, in Christ that liberates the suffering of mankind is through hope in “his coming to a dignity, clothe even the servants with a brighter garment, to the glory of the son; so will God also clothe the creature with incorruption for the glorious liberty of the children.” (Chrysostom Romans, Hom. 14) Thus, man is freed, the soul becoming incorruptible in his hope in Christ. Paul then counsels that we not stoop lower than creation, having anguish in our concupiscence, not just anguish, rather a "clinging to these things but actually groaning in our delay for our adoption."

It's always nice when Chrysostom is mentioned. Few have had a deeper understanding of Scripture. I wonder what to make of this in relation to the groaning and anticipation of creation, though, since I'm increasingly convinced that Rom.8 is talking about more than just humanity. I'm tempted to see it as an expression of a kind of solidarity of fallen humanity with a creation that in some sense feels the anguish of its fallen condition. Paul often uses very organic language, and I wonder whether his organicism isn't central to Rom.8, where the creation as a whole suffers in something like the way the whole body suffers when it's infected with a nasty disease.

Just a thought. I wouldn't want to have to defend it... yet.

[JoeT777]

Ahh, Joe, it's good to see you back.

But I haven’t been anywhere; I just couldn’t find the time to respond. I’ve been spending a great deal of time drumming for business (unsuccessfully, I might add).

I like what you say about our suffering uniting us to God. That puts another face on Rom.8 and, if I'm not misunderstanding, suggests that our suffering and "groaning" unites us both with God and with the creation which is also "groaning". I like that idea a lot. Also the point about vexation, frustration: This is something I hadn't paid enough attention to, I think.

Don’t forget the entire chapter is being addressed to those who are justified in Christ and thus “there is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus” I think the key to your verses is in verse 18; “For I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come that shall be revealed in us. “ St. Chrysostom suggests that Paul is pointing out two senses of suffering; one that is unworthy and can never be worthy enough compared to the promised glory, the other a type of suffering, our nature moves quite freely towards, is one we sometimes typify with the saying to “wallowing in one’s our own pity.” The first is a suffering that the penitent finds vexingly insufficient for reparations therefore he bemoans his inability to “suffer enough” warranting merit as adopted sons of God (as Christ suffered), the later the penitent bemoans, is frustrated that his sufferings lack of merit. Thus we have Paul reckoning (calculating the value of his sufferings finding them unworthy in contrast to the wondrous gift of glory. “For that which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation worketh for us above measure, exceedingly an eternal weight of glory.” (2 Corinthians 4:17)

It's always nice when Chrysostom is mentioned. Few have had a deeper understanding of Scripture. I wonder what to make of this in relation to the groaning and anticipation of creation, though, since I'm increasingly convinced that Rom.8 is talking about more than just humanity. I'm tempted to see it as an expression of a kind of solidarity of fallen humanity with a creation that in some sense feels the anguish of its fallen condition. Paul often uses very organic language, and I wonder whether his organicism isn't central to Rom.8, where the creation as a whole suffers in something like the way the whole body suffers when it's infected with a nasty disease.

Yes, in a sense I would agree that Romans 8 deals with a fallen humanity and anguished creation in a fallen condition. But, I think Paul’s words are more to the point that this creation is hope.

Ver. 21. That the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption.

Now what is this creation? Not yourself alone, but that also which is your inferior, and partakes not of reason or sense, this too shall be a sharer in your blessings. For it shall be freed, he says, from the bondage of corruption, that is, it shall no longer be corruptible, but shall go along with the beauty given to your body; just as when this became corruptible, that became corruptible also; so now it is made incorruptible, that also shall follow it too. And to show this he proceeds. (εἰς) Into the glorious liberty of the children of God. That is, because of their liberty. For as a nurse who is bringing up a king's child, when he has come to his father's power, does herself enjoy the good things along with him, thus also is the creation, he means. You see how in all respects man takes the lead, and that it is for his sake that all things are made. See how he solaces the struggler, and shows the unspeakable love of God toward man. For why, he would say, do you fret at your temptations? you are suffering for yourself, the creation for you. Nor does he solace only, but also shows what he says to be trustworthy. For if the creation which was made entirely for you is in hope, much more oughtest thou to be, through whom the creation is to come to the enjoyment of those good things. Thus men (3 manuscripts fathers) also when a son is to appear at his coming to a dignity, clothe even the servants with a brighter garment, to the glory of the son; so will God also clothe the creature with incorruption for the glorious liberty of the children. CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 14 on Romans (Chrysostom)

JoeT

[jakester]

God was helpless??

JoeT

my quote was as follows: "In other words, there is a belief that because Adam sinned, the world was automatically forced into a chaotic state and God was helpless to stop the effects of Adam's sin."

Joe - no harm, no foul

[arcura]

Akoue,
Thanks much for that even if it was for Joe, I benefited much.
Fred