[frangipanis]

Okay, I have to confess I have a problem controlling jealousy. I can actually make myself feel sick over it.

After driving my boyfriend crazy too many times with what he sees as irrational and unjustified fears, I made a pact with him that I would make a big effort to work through my problem and if I did get jealous again, would deal with it outside our relationship instead of pursuing him relentlessly for reassurance. You know, be unbearably CLINGY!

He can't bear to feel accused of doing something he hasn't done and has no intentions of ever doing. He wants me to just feel safe. He does love me and shows it in all sorts of ways. I am extremely grateful to have someone like him as my partner.

But it happened again, just last night, after weeks of being completely content and happy in our relationship, I had another jealousy fit, causing me to lose a lot of sleep and feel dreadful all day. All completely unnecessary, as it turns out.

I see jealousy being an odd mix of fears and insecurities. There is the obvious fear of losing the bond with the person you love and want to count on always being with you, the fear of losing financial security, fear of not stacking up against others for all sorts of reasons, whether physical, mental or emotional. There's the fear of having been used all along, of being replaceable and so reduandant or unimportant, or being humliated. These are all awful things if they actually happen to you, but if it hasn't actually happened and your partner is reassuring you it never will, what causes those jealous fits to keep surfacing?

Sometimes I think it's the messages we hear throughout our lives that people often cheat on their partner, so why should I be exempt. Or the fact that the majority of women are likely to be one man away from poverty. Then there are idealised beliefs about what makes someone beautiful to others, and we can easily fall into the trap of comparing ourselves unfavourably to others. Maybe it's not believing life is ever going to be fair to you, so why expect love to be fair to you.

If you've managed to overcome a jealous tendency, I'd really like to hear from you. Or if you have a problem with jealousy and want similar support, that would be great too. If you feel smug about not having a problem with jealousy, that's okay too... I'll wear it :)

[Clough]

Hi, frangipanis!

What was it that you got jealous last night, please?

I've had some issues in my life with feeling competitive. I think that jealously and competitiveness might overlap some.

Thanks!

[frangipanis]

Well, Clough, it was a lot to do about nothing, as it turned out. What was bothering me is that my boyfriend sold and delivered a fridge to the home of a very attractive single woman he works with this evening. My mind worked overtime imagining her to be the perfect woman for him and as they are both single, well...

[Clough]

There are advantages to being married, you know. Any plans on doing that? Making vows and signing papers indicating commitment might be a good thing to do. Doing those sort of things might help to ease your mind and take the guess work out of things.

Just a thought...

Thanks!

[frangipanis]

That would be wonderful if it were possible at the moment, Clough, only my daughter is still adjusting to the idea her father and I are divorced. I want to give her a chance to properly accept my new partner in her life. That could take some time.

We looked at a piece of land together a few months ago that would have been perfect for us to build a home on. I was very happy at the thought of us getting started on building our lives together... an actual marriage proposal hasn't quite happened yet, but we have been to a lawyer together to draft a prenup. Knowing him, he would be waiting for the dust to settle on that before making a formal marriage proposal.

He actually sat down with my son and my daughter to talk about the home we planned to build for our family (including room enough for his children)... how their ideas would be taken into consideration in designing the home etc. I fell in love with him all over again that evening. It was after that evening and seeing my daughter's reaction that we both knew we had to slow down for her to catch up with us.

He and I are both the marrying (foundation) types... like to plant our roots deep in the soill, so to speak. These are all reasons I shouldn't be afraid of losing him.

[Clough]

Okay, I understand more now. I figured that you were that kind of person.

How about just trusting more, going with what you feel in your heart and thinking less? It will be hard at first, but with time and practice, it gets easier. He has taken the time to do some, if not a lot, of meaningful things with you and your children.

No matter if people are married or not, there's going to be times when either person is going to be alone in situations where someone might be present that, depending on the choice that either person makes, where either person could choose to be jealous.

It sounds like he cares an immense amount for both you and yours!

Thanks!

[frangipanis]

He's an interesting and loveable person most of the time, Clough. Part mongrel (can I say that?), part prince, which is probably why he keeps me on my toes. And yes, he has taken a lot of time to do a lot of meaningful things with me and my children, which is the reminder I need that he cares deeply enough to do those things for us.

He holds a little in reserve, naturally, but that makes good emotional sense when in a developing relationship like ours. We often don't get it right, but we try our best. There is something a little chaotic about our relationship, I must admit lol.

I would like to be able to make the decision to 'trust him all the time'. I'm not sure what stops me doing that... I guess he has a lot of opportunities for meeting attractive women and that plays on mind. And he is quite a chatter-box, so picks up conversation with people quite easily. Still, he has often reminded me how much it would mean to him if I could just 'trust him!' I have to keep working on this, Clough.

[tickle]

Frangi my dear, one never loses the downside of jealousy. It is an inherent human trait. However, age, maturity and experience will always win over any feelings of this nature. I can safely say that I don't get jealous anymore because I am perfectly happy in my skin, and possibly reaching the age of over 60 has done a lot for my outlook as well !

I must say though, there must be good reason you feel that way or you wouldn't. You have always come over as a very well adjusted person, from your posts. Has this situation occurred before, maybe with your ex or again with your s/o?

My suggestion. Go get a new haircut, buy a new outfit, wear your make up differently, feel pretty, attractive, smart. I bet you are far prettier then the woman he delivered the appliance too !

[Jake2008]

Jealousy can hide many things. Insecurity, fear, loss of freedom, independence, commitment. It can blind a person to reality, and cripple a relationship. The one who does not trust an innocent partner, will eventually wind up alone.

It is crippling to the one not trusted too. They are never quite sure that their actions are going to cause a jealous reaction, and learn to walk on eggshells. No matter what they do, or how reassuring they try to be, they are not believed, and cannot establish trust with their partner.

If there is no trust, how can you build a relationship.

To be so anxious about it as you've said, to the point of losing sleep and getting sick over it, goes beyond 'normal' jealousy. We all go through that during relationships where we temporarily think the other is doing something they shouldn't be with the opposite sex.

But, I get the impression here that the jealousy is merely at bay, and not an emotion that you are able to control, more than a short period.

One of the things that works for me is keeping a diary. Buy a little book from the local dollar store, and when you feel these feelings coming on, get the book and start writing. What has the day been like. Mood. Thoughts, feelings and actions that are leading you down that familiar path again.

It doesn't have to make sense to anybody but you. Getting it out in a healthy way will likely stop you from getting wound up. As you deal with it this way, after a while you will start seeing patterns and realize that there are triggers. Sometimes I even pull over to the side of the road and write down thoughts.

It doesn't come out of nowhere, it builds up over time.

You sound like a nice person, and a great mom, and he sounds like a really solid guy.

I believe you have the ability to control jealousy, rather than letting it control you.

[TexasParent]

Jealousy can also be a control issue; just another tool of control that has manifested itself in your behavior.

Did you come from a dysfunctional family? Were there any heavy drinkers, or drug abusers? Did you suffer from an abusive childhood. Any one of these things and others can make someone controlling; co-dependant.

Melody Beattie wrote a great book called "Co-Dependant No More". There is also a daily reader she authored called "The Language of Letting Go".

Both of these books will help you with control issues and give you more freedom and less anxiety about things that ultimately are really out of your control.

[frangipanis]

There is so much insight and experience here that I'd like more time to absorb it all before responding. Other thoughts are welcome.

[frangipanis]

It is crippling to the one not trusted too. They are never quite sure that their actions are going to cause a jealous reaction, and learn to walk on eggshells. No matter what they do, or how reassuring they try to be, they are not believed, and cannot establish trust with their partner.

This is what I mostly need to understand and focus on changing about myself, as jealousy has blinded me to what my partner experiences during those fits of jealousy.

[frangipanis]

[QUOTE=tickle;1513353]frangi my dear, one never loses the downside of jealousy. It is an inherent human trait. However, age, maturity and experience will always win over any feelings of this nature. I can safely say that I don't get jealous anymore because I am perfectly happy in my skin, and possibly reaching the age of over 60 has done a lot for my outlook as well!

Has this situation occurred before, maybe with your ex or again with your s/o?/QUOTE]

Thanks again, tickle. I needed to hear that too :)

And no, I've not actually had a partner cheat on me while we've been together. I was shocked and disappointed when it took my ex only a few months after separating to fly off to the US to see his old flame from university days. Besides that, which I guess is forgiveable and not something I was too hurt by since our marriage was already over, he came home to me every single night during our marriage... apart from once needing to spend three months overseas on legitimate business. He wasn't perfect, but he wasn't a womaniser either. But you know, I spent twenty years dreading the thought of him ever cheating on me..

[frangipanis]

Jealousy can also be a control issue; just another tool of control that has manifested itself in your behavior.

Did you come from a dysfunctional family? Were there any heavy drinkers, or drug abusers? Did you suffer from an abusive childhood. Any one of these things and others can make someone controlling; co-dependant.

Melody Beattie wrote a great book called "Co-Dependant No More". There is also a daily reader she authored called "The Language of Letting Go".

Both of these books will help you with control issues and give you more freedom and less anxiety about things that ultimately are really out of your control.

Hi there, and thanks. You asked some good questions that I want to answer, as briefly as I can manage it... there are some things you can't say in a word or two.

Although I'm grateful I was never sexually abused, I did grow up in a dysfunctional family environment. My father, who was an ex-serviceman (went to Korea when he was just 17), suffered a lot from nightmares when he returned to Australia and could hardly hold down a job. We lived in a part of Sydney where there were a lot of ex-servicemen like him, and they did a lot of heavy drinking. So yes, he was sadly an alcoholic.

He left our home when I was around 7 and I didn't see him again until I was around 16 years of age. Not long after that, he stopped drinking altogether and went out of his way to prove to me and to my older brother and sister that he really did love us. He mostly spent the rest of his adult life helping other men recover from alcoholism.

I loved my father very much, and although I know he physically hurt my mother through stories she and my older sister have told me, I only remember him as being a basically gentle person who could be very funny at times. He was from Coogee in Sydney, and I remember he took us to the beach a lot, which I loved. I have a lot of admiration for my father. He (and my mother) have been the best teachers in my life.

Even so, because people who suffer from alcoholism are so unpredictable, there was a lot of chaos in my childhood and I was left alone a lot to fend and figure things out for myself. I mostly find it easier to trust myself than to trust others for that reason, although I've been lucky enough to have met some very wonderful people and have made some special friendships.

I managed to get to a couple of meetings for children of alcoholics after my marriage broke down since I was really scared at that time, but I couldn't keep that going. I'll see if I can find the Melody Beattie's books you recommended. I'm sure there's a link between my childhood fears and the problem I realise I have with jealousy.

[Jake2008]

Sometimes I think that jealousy comes out of what I we think should expect.

We live in societies where 50% or better marriages fail in divorce. We have unrealistic expectations of our partners, and lack the skills to solve problems in relationships. We seek guidance from people who are 'experts' if they have surivived divorce, and see that as somehow valuable advice on successful relationships. It is like an addict who spends the last 15 years of his/her life in recovery, and considers themselves to be an expert in how to overcome an addiction. (NOT to say that those who do overcome and go on to healthy relationship, and are a valuable learning source for others who are struggling)

Partners, husbands, wives, are disposable. We aren't willing to put in the work to overcome problems to keep a relationship, and learn how to effectively deal with the shortcomings of our partners and ourselves. We have problems, and blame our partners for not understanding them, and use that as a catalyst to shift the responsibility. We see things that aren't there because of our insecurities and inability to think that not all men are the same, yet all problems must be caused by them.

Is it any wonder that we become increasingly insecure and maybe even look for problems to satisfy and prove that idea or thought that they must be up to something? Even when the truth smacks us in the face, and there is no problem, except what we perceive, we look for answers other than accepting the fault is squarely on our own shoulders? Can we not see that it has nothing to do with decisions made by a woman in adulthood that have resulted from her past? As an adult, this insecurity is not caused by being insecure at some point during one's childhood. And if it is, that issue itself needs to be addressed, or no relationship will be healthy; with children, friends, co-workers, etc.

Discovering that a past relationship with any person, is a cause of current behaviour is one thing. It may provide some enlightenment as to where some of the jealousy came from, but it does not explain the fact that there is a part two to this equasion. The husband. While this is going on, his needs are not being met, he is under the gun, and nothing he can say or do will change things.

Knowing the perception of jealousy is unfounded with THIS person, should mean that both parties need to get their derriere's into counselling and address how jealousy is affecting the relationship as a whole. It would be lovely to be able to say that yes dear, your father's alcoholism is the cause of your insecurity, but that will not make the relationship any stronger, nor will it be a cure.

You may very well need to address the control issues as has been stated, which is a very good idea, on its own. I see it as being done in addition to addressing how to improve the relationship before it degrades to such an extent that nothing will save it.

It is very difficult to trust, and that one basic relationship denominator will affect more than anything else. There has to be a reason for it, I agree. But when there isn't a reason, and it is manifesting itself into morphing you into a person that you do not want to be, and changing the very fabric of the relationship itself, you have to consider above your own needs, or should I say in addition to your own needs, your partner.

I admire you for being so honest about your perceptions of your jealousy, and you are brave to be able to face them, and realize that it is a serious problem. For yourself personally, and for your relationship. My hat is off to you.

Now you need to take steps to do what you have to do.

I am sorry to rant, I do not want to imply that you are characteristic of all that I have said, I mean things more in a general sense and perception I have on the state of marriages and relationships today. I've seen too many good friends fall by the wayside because they couldn't muster the resolve to admit they needed help, and then get it.

And, this is only my opinion here, but I think that you are far more capable than you think you are to address this, and strong enough to do the hard work needed to get things back on track again for yourself, and for your relationship.

[frangipanis]

Partners, husbands, wives, are disposable. We aren't willing to put in the work to overcome problems to keep a relationship, and learn how to effectively deal with the shortcomings of our partners and ourselves. We have problems, and blame our partners for not understanding them, and use that as a catalyst to shift the responsibility. We see things that aren't there because of our insecurities and inability to think that not all men are the same, yet all problems must be caused by them.

Hi Jake,

Just wanted to say that my ex and I spent a lot of time in counselling around two years before we separated, with a reasonable amount of success at the time, we thought. Our marriage was not given up on lightly, by either of us, I can assure you.

I did not want to focus on the problems of my marriage that ended in divorce, to list faults or cast blame. I have a clear conscience I did everything possible to hold on to our marriage for as long as humanly possible. The hardest thing I ever heard was from a counsellor in the last year of our marriage who advised me that our marriage had all the signs of heading for divorce... and finally helped me to realise it was over. Our marriage was unsustainable and separation was essential for mine as well as his mental health and wellbeing, as well as our children.

My ex refused counselling in the final stages of our marriage. He was suffering from acute depression and did not seek treatment. He suffered a breakdown after our marriage ended. His breakdown was caused by a hugely complex range of issues (some of which I will never know about, I'm sure), including my jealousy issues, as well an abusive employer, as well as his own personal unresolved issues that he had not taken responsibility for. I did as much as I could to support my husband and provide him with a safe and loving marriage and home. He was always assured I would never cheat on him. Towards the end of our marriage, he was bundling all his depression and projected it all on to me...

It was after our marriage was over and experiencing being in a new relationship that I began to see more clearly my jealous tendencies had contributed to my partner's unhappiness at times. It is something I am wanting to work on for myself and for my relationship. My jealousy isn't so debilitating an issue that it is cause for ending my current relationship.

I felt I had to say this as it may have given the wrong impression to women who remain in an unhealthy marriage and blame themselves for its failure, as we have a tendency to do.

[frangipanis]

And, this is only my personal opinion here, but I think that you are far more capable than you think you are to address this, and strong enough to do the hard work needed to get things back on track again for yourself, and for your relationship.

Thanks for that, Jake. I appreciated the words of encouragement at the end.

Further to this discussion on jealousy, I thought it might help to highlight some of the different ways jealousy manifests... none of which are pretty or pleasant for the 'victim' of jealousy. Here are my thoughts:

My current partner's ex girlfriend violently lashed out at him both physically and verbally during her jealousy fits. Both his ex-wife and ex-girlfriend cheated on him, to punish him, I'm sure, and eventually left him. I have never, and would never, abuse my partner in this way.

The way my jealousy fits manifest is that I become extremely suspicious (over analytical of a situation and often get it plain wrong, often making bizarre connections), become annoyingly clingy and whingy wanting reassurance as well as an explanation of everything that's going on in his life and in his mind, assert myself too strongly if I'm not satisfied I'm getting the answers or reassurance I want, start to accuse my partner of not caring, get frustrated and in the past (previous marriage), have threatened to leave the relationship. This is all HIDEOUS and STUPID behaviour, and horrible to live with when it happens.

The fact my partner and I don't live together has helped give me perspective during these times. I need to change some of my behaviours as well as my thinking. I started a journal at the beginning of the year so that I have dates and details of any jealous feelings that come up as an issue. I'm hoping this will help me to see a few things I possibly haven't been able to see before.

I'd be interested if you have any thoughts about this in relation to learning how to deal with jealousy.

[Jake2008]

You are a smart cookie, and I sincerely appreciate your thoughts, and for providing more information. There is much more depth to the meaning of your words now.

I am a firm believer in talking. And of journaling. You would not believe how many little notebooks I have in my office, my purse, the glove box, even a little pack on my bike with a smaller version and a pen.

It is through these kinds of efforts that you can make peace with your thoughts. I tend to get obsessive about some things, and it is only when I write things out and read them the next day that I see not only why I was bothered so much, but why I couldn't see what was right in front of me because I was so busy worrying about it.

It is the hardest thing to admit that you may have contributed to, or been the cause of someone elses' distress and unhappiness. How do you face that truth, and know at the same time you wouldn't knowingly hurt them for the world, yet you did. And guilt is another thing, it is much harder to forgive yourself, than someone else.

I rarely ever hear anyone say that they caused the breakup of their marriage, or that they can pinpoint any mistakes they made that resulted in some serious problems with their children. Not only does this sort of blindness break people and families apart, it does not allow for any healing or insight, so that the same patters are not repeated with the next relationship, or situation.

It is so important to do the work. Much easier to walk away. The biggest challenges in any relationship are defining who we are as individuals, and who we are as a part of someone elses' life. Where and how we fit. Too often, people bail when the heat turns up. It is not easy to change, it is extremely hard.

All I can say is don't lose sight of your goals. Your goals may change, or alter, but figure out what you want from yourself, and your partner, and be prepared to make whatever changes you need to. The more honest you are with yourself, the easier it will be to address your concerns.

And, I'm never impressed with any therapists who decide that any relationship is too far gone to be salvaged. That is just bull***t. It is not the therapists role to make that call.

I really admire your honesty. That is so refreshing to me. All the very best to you in your journey.

[frangipanis]

It is the hardest thing to admit that you may have contributed to, or been the cause of someone elses' distress and unhappiness. How do you face that truth, and know at the same time you wouldn't knowingly hurt them for the world, yet you did. And guilt is another thing, it is much harder to forgive yourself, than someone else.

I rarely ever hear anyone say that they caused the breakup of their marriage, or that they can pinpoint any mistakes they made that resulted in some serious problems with their children. Not only does this sort of blindness break people and families apart, it does not allow for any healing or insight, so that the same patters are not repeated with the next relationship, or situation.

This is sadly very true. Wisdom often comes too late, and in hindsight.

The question of whether any marriage should ever end in divorce, is a subject all of its own, and possibly not what I need to rehash at the moment. Although I appreciate the fact there are people who hold on dearly to their marriage vows and are happy in their marriage. This gives the rest of us hope :)

I'm also glad to have your well wishes and to read your reflections on journaling as a tool for gaining more insight. Best wishes to you also.

[frangipanis]

I really admire your honesty. That is so refreshing to me. All the very best to you in your journey.

I admire your honesty as well. It's good when that happens, rather than tiptoeing about and avoid saying how we really feel and what we think.