[cozyk]

Okay, here goes.

1. Man and Woman are created.;)
2. Woman chose to disobey God and thus committed the first sin.:eek:
3. Because of her, the rest of us have to pay.:(
4. Animals had to be sacrificed in the OT to earn acceptance from God.:(
5. In the NT, Jesus was sacrificed for our sins. (Hey, I wasn't even born yet! ) The deal was, if you believe that Jesus died for your sake as a way to pay for your sins, THEN I (GOD) will accept you into my kingdom.:cool:

Why torture Jesus that way? Looks like a source as powerful as God could come up with a better plan wouldn't you think? As a parent, you don't punish child A when child B disobeyed do you. That would just be all kinds of wrong:mad:

My love for my children is unconditional and I would never ever turn them away. And I especially would never send them somewhere to be tortured! (Hell) NEVER, no matter what. They could have disobeyed me, not accepted my sacrifice made for them, or even cursed me.
Still, I'd never turn my back on them. In MY opinion, neither would God. This story just does not add up.

[desertmommas]

Its not a condition. It's a respect issue. It's a conscious choice to say I choose You God and promise to do all that You ask of me. Just as if you were to tell your children... You are not allowed to do something bad for you, if you choose to do this, you won't be allowed in my home where you can hurt your siblings. I still love you but I can't allow you to influence others.

[cozyk]

Its not a condition. Its a respect issue. Its a conscious choice to say I choose You God and promise to do all that You ask of me. Just as if you were to tell your children... You are not allowed to do something bad for you, if you choose to do this, you won't be allowed in my home where you can hurt your siblings. I still love you but I can't allow you to influence others.

Are you saying that if a non believer went to heaven, he/she could hurt the other people there and be a bad influence to them?

AND if for some unthinkable reason,my child chose not to accept my conditions, and I would not let them into my home, it would end right there. I would not send them to a place where they would be tortured and burned for eternity.

Thanks for trying but it still does not add up.

[450donn]

OK, look at in the simplest terms I can come up with.
If you were offered a free new car. the only condition being that you were responsible to keep it washed every week, would you take it? Of course you would. Now if you chose to ignore the cleanliness stipulation and the person who gave it to you took it back. Would that be the givers fault? Of course not. It is your fault. God has offered a free gift of salvation. The only stipulation is that you must follow his teachings and learn to live your life according to his wishes and teachings. It is your choice to follow the rules or not. That is what free will is.

[arcura]

450donn,
Very good post.
Even though God may not take a person into His heaven where everythin must be perfect and pure He still loves the children who are not there.
God's love an mercy are perfect but so is His justice.
All of God's attributes are perfect or He is not God.
AND...
All being perfect they must be in balance with each other.
If they are not them perfection is lost.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[cozyk]

I understand all of your analogies. I get that!

Even though God may not take a person into His heaven where everythin must be perfect and pure He still loves the children who are not there. From arcura's post.

What does it matter if he still loves the people who are in hell? How does that help?

Imagine a person that has led an exemplary nearly flawless life. Did all the right things because that's just who he is. The only thing is, he is jewish. Now, because he does not believe Jesus is the messiah, he is going to hell. That's what you are saying to me.

Answer the hard questions people and stop talking about just the pretty parts.
Another example - you have given your child a choice to follow your rules or not. IF they do, then you welcome them home. (Heaven)
If they don't, you will not allow them into your home.
In fact, not only can you not come home but I am going to send you to an awful place where you will be tortured and burned forever. Remember I still love you though.

Face it, this is the ugly truth you keep avoiding.

Would any of you present this ultimatum to your child? Unless you tell me no, I will just have to assume that you would.

You don't have a problem with God doing it.
Everything you describe is black or white. There is no grey area.

[Fr_Chuck]

The issue is God is love, but he is also just, he is also one that demands his rules be followed.

He has set the rules, you may not like them, I may not like them, to you they may not be fair, but God set them up to be this way.

He gave mankind a way to gain forgiveness one that requires nothing but love and commitment. No work or act just love and acceptance of Christ. What greater love is there than that.

God does not in fact doom anyone to hell, man dooms hisself by refusal to accept Christ. The choice of life or death is mans to make.

And there is no flawless life, all men are sinners and must repent and accept Christ to be saved, There is no "third" choice no back door.

And Jesus was born Jewish, as was most of the early church, so when the words were said, that no one is good enough, the jews were included in that comment too.

[Wondergirl]

you have given your child a choice to follow your rules or not. IF they do, then you welcome them home. (Heaven)
If they don't, you will not allow them into your home.

But that's not the Gospel. There's no issue about following rules in order to get into heaven.

[inthebox]

Just my point of view:


As a parent, I would push my child out of the way of an oncoming car that is sure to kill the child. I would rather that I get killled, then my child.

God sees that sin as that oncoming car and death, an eternity away from God [ hell ], is inevitable.

God knows there is nothing that we can do to get away from that car or survive.

God knows that the only way for his child [ we sinners ] to survive or escape is if HE, in the person of Jesus Christ, takes the punishment for our sins [ being hit by a car ], as painful as it is. God knows that HE can take the hit [ death ] and survive [ resurrection ]. By that act; death and sin are conquered.

This is a merciful and loving God, because HE sacrificed, that we sinners not get the just punishment that we deserve.

It is up to us whether we accept that gift, that grace, to trust in God, and to be with God for all eternity.

If a person, sadly, makes the choice not to believe in God or accept His mercy... then that is their choice.







"Imagine a person that has led an exemplary nearly flawless life. "






That is the thing, you don't have to be perfect or flawless or follow every rule, every commandment, every second of your life. God knows that it is impossible for us to live like that.

Read the Gospels, who does Jesus talk to - the flawed, the sinners [ The samaritan woman, the thief on the cross, the women caught in adultery, the tax collectors, the demon possessed, the lepers etc. ]
Who did Jesus rail against? The pharisees, [ legalists ] those that thought that by following the rules better than most that they were better; they looked down upon others as sinners.


Now the God that I believe in, knows I am a sinner and weak, and He forgives and loves me just the same. [ parable of the prodigal son ].


A cruel and merciless god, would not have sacrificed himself for me, for sinners. That god would have millions of rules that we have to folow - other wise you get fried. This a god that would not intervene with a car coming to kill us.







G&P

[arcura]

cozyk,
First of all please remember that that God IS perfect in all His aspects so there MUST be a balance with them all including love and justice.
Justice demands punishment if you are evil.
If you are purposely evil you are rejecting God, then in the end He rejects you unless you have reformed are sorry for your sins and confessed your sins.
About the Jew you mentioned, there are theologians who claim that there is a separate salvation for Jews because they are God's first born and chosen people. God chose to have the Messiah born a Jew and the bible says that the Jewish people will all come to accept Jesus as their Messiah. That may happen to those who are in Purgatory, but I do not know.
Now please get this, The Catholic Church teaches that the king of peace, love and mercy is Jesus Christ who will be the final Judge of who goes where so it is possible that the person with a near flawless life may be saved.
Also Purgatory is the place where a person's impurities (sinful nature) is purged so that they can be pure and enter heaven.
I know that most Protestant do not believe in Purgatory even though the bible has several passages that indicates a place like Purgatory exists.
I'm very happy that God has provided such a place where more sinful people can pass through to salvation.
At every Mass world wide the Catholic Church prays for the salvation of all those who are in friendship with Jesus.
If a person is trying to live a good and decent life even though they do not know about Jesus they can be considered to be in friendship with Jesus because of their life style, effort and intent.
I believe that.
In fact I have often prayed that all souls will eventually make it to heaven for I do think that an eternity of anguish in punishment for a sinful life of less than 150 years is a bit excessive.
I also pray that God's perfect and infinite will will be done.
If you have prayed the Lord's pray you have asked that God's will be done.
I like you because you show yourself to be a person of love and mercy.
We (the world) need everyone to be that way. It would be the end of wars, terrorists, rapists, murderers, and all the other terrible and nasty things people do to each other.
But that is NOT the way the world is and I fear it will stay that way till the return of Christ the King and judge.
So far we Christians have failed in converting everyone to the love and salvation of God through Jesus Christ.
There are over 2 billion Christians, but 4 billion are not.
There's a lot of work to be done.
Pope John Paul II (often now called John Paul The Great) asked all Catholics to be more evangelical and in fact urged all Christians to be so.
I hope that we all are working to help save more souls.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[revdrgade]

The answer to your questions is a tough-love answer.

Anyone who has sin can't get into "heaven" (be with perfect God for eternity) as He intended when He created the first persons.

It is clear that ALL people have sin because they are not perfectly righteous as God is.

Therefore ALL people are going to hell.

Unless their sin is removed. Sin and its consequences is what Jesus "saved" us from. It's a gift for anyone who will receive it by faith.

Ro 3:21-25
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.
NIV

Ro 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NIV

1 Jn 3:4-5

4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.
NIV

[arcura]

Inthebox,
I like you post.
Particularly the example of saving a child from death via the on coming car.
I'm going to remember that to use if an opportunity to use it arrises.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[MarkwithaK]

If you are purposely evil you are rejecting God,

By your way of thinking would the inverse be true? If someone is rejecting God would they be evil?

Hypothetical question: Let's say that a group/tribe of people were born on an island totally cut-off from the modern world. They have no knowledge of the Christian Church, Jesus Christ or God. Having no knowledge they obviously cannot follow the word of God, does this make them evil? Does this mean that they will be sent to hell?

[arcura]

MarkwithaK's,
Many Christians think that those island people you mentioned will go to hell.
I don't and the Catholic Church does not.
I believe that they may be saved.
Jesus is the judge of that.
I think that anyone who say that so and so IS going to hell should not do so because they do not know for certain how Jesus will judge a person on that judgment day.
God knows everything about everyone including what is in their history, hearts, souls and minds.
No human being knows all of that about a person.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[MarkwithaK]

I think that anyone who say that so and so IS going to hell should not do so because they do not know for certain how Jesus will judge a person on that judgment day.

Then how can any religion say that any one person walking this Earth is doomed to hell or will be admitted into Heaven despite what their sins are?

Is murder acceptable if it is committed for 'the right reasons'? What about the Crusades?

I know that one of the Ten Commandments says to 'Honor thy Father'. Well my father is a worthless piece of scum, does that damn me to hell even though I may be a good person otherwise?

[adam7gur]

cozyk
It has nothing to do with punishing child A when child B dissobeys!
Jesus is God.He is our father because His name is Everlasting Father Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
So it is clear that God Himself suffered for us!
You ask... Imagine a person that has led an exemplary nearly flawless life. Did all the right things because that's just who he is. The only thing is, he is jewish. Now, because he does not believe Jesus is the messiah, he is going to hell. That's what you are saying to me.?

Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

You also write... Another example - you have given your child a choice to follow your rules or not. IF they do, then you welcome them home. (Heaven)
If they don't, you will not allow them into your home.
In fact, not only can you not come home but I am going to send you to an awful place where you will be tortured and burned forever. Remember I still love you though.

It is not where God sends us , but it is where we choose to be.
If I live my life following my Father's advice on how to live my life to be safe,then I am with God my Father and God my Father is with me. If I don't then I am not with God my Father and God my Father is not with me .Hell is simply the absence of God and it is my choise to decide if I want to be with Him or not!

I have a question for you...
What has God done to you that you false accuse Him so hard for things that He is not to blame?
Do you think you have more wisdom than Him?Do you think your righteousness is better than His?
Is your love greater than His?
Now you answear the hard questions!

[adam7gur]

MarkwithaK
You wrote... I know that one of the Ten Commandments says to 'Honor thy Father'. Well my father is a worthless piece of scum, does that damn me to hell even though I may be a good person otherwise?

Your father may be the way you describe him to be.If so it is not your job to point the finger out to him and shout GUILTY !Be very sure that at the very same time you do that , someone else's finger is pointed out to you shouting GUILTY!
If your father is guilty of something , don't expose him because the same thing will happen to you.Cover his weakness and I don't mean lie about it but let's say you have cut yourself and you are bleeding.Don't go around showing everybody the blood but cover the wound and heal it!

[JBeaucaire]

Unfortunately, most of this discussion is moot. People argue about it all the time as if understanding THIS somehow takes precedence over anything, and it doesn't.

God's teaching, His lifestyle demands, couldn't be more simple:

1) Love God (or put in modern terms, stop thinking WE are the center of the universe and anything is OK, it's not, there is a higher responsibility and authority, even if we think we're in charge.)

2) Love Others as you love yourself (This includes respecting the rights of others to NOT do things our way.)

3) In all situations, whatever the issue, whatever the debate or confusion, resort to rules #1 and #2 above and you'll be in God's will.

As humans, like it or not, we have a humanistic and self-based concept of right and wrong. God wants us to have a selfless and Godly sense of right and wrong.

Most of us simply aren't up to the task. And instead of admitting that, or staying focused on FIXING that, we stray off into debates like this one to pass the time. We create these little "what if" stories just further the argument. It's odd, actually.

I completely understand this debate, both sides. I've argued both. And during the whole debate, not a single thing was resolved, no one was clothed or fed or healed or pacified... nothing.

Cozy, you're asking if God's love is conditional. That's easy, there is no debate... No, it is not conditional. But prefacing this debate with that is just a red herring. This isn't about conditionality, it's about freedom of the soul.

So, if you're a free soul, and some person is striving to save you from the oncoming vehicle... guess what? You can still choose to let yourself get hit. You get to know what the right thing is and still NOT do it.

Look around this forum, most of the people here are looking for help with the cars they've stepped in front of (metaphorically speaking).

For me, I state it simply - if it respects the laws of nature, if it elevates mankind above my personal needs, if it helps me help others... then it's good and Godly and blessings will flow in my life for doing THOSE things.

I can't state that is true of debates like this one. It blesses no one, it divides people, and if there's anything Satan wants (or whatever evil you can believe in), he wants people who could be out doing GOOD locked in a room somewhere debating something irrelevant.

Let's not get roped in by it.

[cozyk]

About the Jew you mentioned, there are theologians who claim that there is a separate salvation for Jews because they are God’s first born and chosen people. God chose to have the Messiah born a Jew and the bible says that the Jewish people will all come to accept Jesus as their Messiah. That may happen to those who are in Purgatory, but I do not know.
I guess that's something. It's been several thousands of years and the jews have not changed their mind. Does that mean there are millions of jewish souls hanging out in purgatory?


.Now please get this, The Catholic Church teaches that the king of peace, love and mercy is Jesus Christ who will be the final Judge of who goes where so it is possible that the person with a near flawless life may be saved.
Thank goodness for that. See, I'm not worried about myself. God and I are pretty tight. I worry about others that have lived a godley life in spite of either not believing in God or that Jesus was more than just a great example. I believe Jesus was sent to show us how it's done. That is, live a godly life.


Also Purgatory is the place where a person’s impurities (sinful nature) is purged so that they can be pure and enter heaven.
I know that most Protestant do not believe in Purgatory even though the bible has several passages that indicates a place like Purgatory exists.
This is what I mean when I say people take from the bible what they want. So how definitive can it be?

I'm very happy that God has provided such a place where more sinful people can pass through to salvation.
Because you are a kind hearted man. I can tell.

At every Mass world wide the Catholic Church prays for the salvation of all those who are in friendship with Jesus.
If a person is trying to live a good and decent life even though they do not know about Jesus they can be considered to be in friendship with Jesus because of their life style, effort and intent.
I believe that.
That's more like it.

In fact I have often prayed that all souls will eventually make it to heaven for I do think that an eternity of anguish in punishment for a sinful life of less than 150 years is a bit excessive.
That is exactly my point.

I also pray that God's perfect and infinite will will be done.
If you have prayed the Lord's pray you have asked that God's will be done.
I like you because you show yourself to be a person of love and mercy.
Thank you, Lord knows I try.

[cozyk]

But that's not the Gospel. There's no issue about following rules in order to get into heaven.

What about the ONE rule that is most important according to Christians.
You can only enter the kingdom of Heaven through Jesus.
I believe in Jesus. I believe there is a good chance that he "died for our sins" even though I still think God could have come up with a better plan.
You keep missing my point. According to Christians, even if you spent your time on this earth doing good works, but you just believed Jesus was a good example, not the son of God, you go to hell. I don't believe this and I don't understand how any rational thinking person would think hell was meant for these people.