[cozyk]

:):):):)

As a matter of fact, in my previous post on this subject, I was not referring to Pascal's Wager or to anyone in particular. However, I have read the page you mention, and I find it very interesting, indeed.

It does not surprise me though, because Pascal was not only a philosopher but a great mathematician and his analysis shows his tendency to analyze the subject of God from that point of view.

In my case, however, I apply the simplest logic although the end result may be the same one. That is, if our friend Malenymph is doubtful whether to play the game in his own particular way, I just wish him good luck.

Nevertheless, I warn him of the possibility that he may be wrong, in which case what is at stake is a lot.

Just eternal happiness vs. eternal confinement into nothingness.

The problem is, in my opinion, that some people do not quite understand the meaning of eternity. Otherwise, I cannot see how anyone can even start to compare whatever pleasures we may have here in our lifetime (less than a nanosecond) against a promised eternal happiness...

I get where you are coming from because I too apply logic to most everything I do. The only part about believing "just in case" or to be on the "safe side" that I find hard to swallow is the motive. If you choose to believe and obey out of fear, is it really coming from the right place?

[gromitt82]

I get where you are coming from because I too apply logic to most everything I do. The only part about believing "just in case" or to be on the "safe side" that I find hard to swallow is the motive. If you choose to believe and obey out of fear, is it really coming from the right place?

Our RCC clearly admits two different forms of repentance, i.e. Contrition and Atrition.

Let me quote what the Catholic Encyclopeadia has to say in this connection:

Attrition or Imperfect Contrition (Latin attero, "to wear away by rubbing"; p. part. Attritus).

The Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, Chap. iv) has defined contrition as "sorrow of soul, and a hatred of sin committed, with a firm purpose of not sinning in the future". This hatred of sin may arise from various motives, may be prompted by various causes. The detestation of sin arise from the love of God, Who has been grievously offended, then contrition is termed perfect; if it arise from any other motive, such its loss of heaven, fear of hell, or the heinousness of guilt, then it is termed imperfect contrition, or attrition. That there exists such a disposition of soul as attrition, and that it is a goodly things an impulse of the Spirit of God, is the clear teaching of the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, iv).

And as to that imperfect contrition which is called attrition, because it is commonly conceived either from the consideration of the turpitude of sin, or from the fear of hell and of punishment, the council declares that if with the hope of pardon, it excludes the wish to sin, it not only does not make man a hypocrite and a greater sinner, but that it is even a gift of God, and an impulse of the Holy Spirit, who does not indeed as yet dwell in the penitent, but who only moves him whereby the penitent, being assisted, prepares a way for himself unto justice, and although this attrition cannot of itself, without the Sacrament of Penance, conduct the sinner to justification yet does it dispose him to receive the grace of God in the Sacrament of Penance.

For smitten profitably with fear, the Ninivites at the preaching of Jonas did fearful penance and obtained mercy from Lord.

Wherefore attrition, the council in Canon v, Sess. XIV, declares: "If any man assert that attrition . . . is not a true and a profitable sorrow; that it does not prepare the soul for grace, but that it makes a man a hypocrite, yea, even a greater sinner, let him be anathema". The doctrine of the council is in accord with the teaching of the Old and the New Testament."

I must add, in all honesty, that most of the time we sinners regret our sins for fear of punishment. Very muchas we keep our speed limits for fear of the fines...

Let's not be hypocritical about it!

[cozyk]

Our RCC clearly admits two different forms of repentance, i.e. Contrition and Atrition.

Let me quote what the Catholic Encyclopeadia has to say in this connection:

Attrition or Imperfect Contrition (Latin attero, "to wear away by rubbing"; p. part. attritus).

The Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, Chap. iv) has defined contrition as "sorrow of soul, and a hatred of sin committed, with a firm purpose of not sinning in the future". This hatred of sin may arise from various motives, may be prompted by various causes. The detestation of sin arise from the love of God, Who has been grievously offended, then contrition is termed perfect; if it arise from any other motive, such its loss of heaven, fear of hell, or the heinousness of guilt, then it is termed imperfect contrition, or attrition. That there exists such a disposition of soul as attrition, and that it is a goodly things an impulse of the Spirit of God, is the clear teaching of the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, iv).

And as to that imperfect contrition which is called attrition, because it is commonly conceived either from the consideration of the turpitude of sin, or from the fear of hell and of punishment, the council declares that if with the hope of pardon, it excludes the wish to sin, it not only does not make man a hypocrite and a greater sinner, but that it is even a gift of God, and an impulse of the Holy Spirit, who does not indeed as yet dwell in the penitent, but who only moves him whereby the penitent, being assisted, prepares a way for himself unto justice, and although this attrition cannot of itself, without the Sacrament of Penance, conduct the sinner to justification yet does it dispose him to receive the grace of God in the Sacrament of Penance.

For smitten profitably with fear, the Ninivites at the preaching of Jonas did fearful penance and obtained mercy from Lord.

Wherefore attrition, the council in Canon v, Sess. XIV, declares: "If any man assert that attrition . . . is not a true and a profitable sorrow; that it does not prepare the soul for grace, but that it makes a man a hypocrite, yea, even a greater sinner, let him be anathema". The doctrine of the council is in accord with the teaching of the Old and the New Testament."

I must add, in all honesty, that most of the time we sinners regret our sins for fear of punishment. Very muchas we keep our speed limits for fear of the fines...

Let's not be hypocritical about it!

I appreciate all your efforts in using all these big words but Lordy Lordy, I get a headache trying to un-twist them into common speak. Could you give it to me again in simple layman's terms please?

[Peaceful1]

Allah says in the Quran 2:79
"And woe to those who write the book with their own hands and they say: "This is from Allah (God)." To traffic with it for a miserable price! So woe to them for what their hands do write, and woe to them for what they earn thereby!"

Muslims have something that offers the clearest proof of all - The Holy Quran. There is no other book like it anywhere on earth. It is absolutely perfect in the Arabic language. It has no mistakes in grammar, meanings or context. The scientific evidences are well known around the entire world, even amongst non-Muslim scholars. Predictions in the Quran have come true; and its teachings are clearly for all people, all places and all times.

Surprisingly enough, the Quran itself provides us with the test of authenticity and offers challenges against itself to prove its veracity. Allah tells us in the Quran:

Haven't the unbelievers considered if this was from other than Allah, they would find within it many contradictions?
[Noble Quran 4:82]

Another amazing challenge from Allah's Book:

If you are in doubt about it, bring a chapter like it.
[Noble Quran 2:23]

And Allah challenges us with:

Bring ten chapters like it.[Noble Quran 11:13]

And finally:

Bring one chapter like it.[Noble Quran 10:38]

For any religion to be pure and authentic, its scriptures should not contain any interpolation, addition, deletion or revision. Moreover the religion’s source of inspiration and direction should be Almighty God. The Qur’an is the only religious scripture on the face of the earth which has been maintained it its original form. All the other religious scriptures, of all the other religions have interpolations, additions, deletions or revisions. The Qur’an has been in the memory of a multitude of people, intact in its original form ever since its revelation, and now there are hundreds of thousands of people who have preserved it in their memory. Moreover, if you compare the copies made by Caliph Uthman from the original Qur’an which is yet present in the museum in Tashkent and in Koptaki museum in Turkey, they are the same as the ones we possess today.

Allah (swt) promises in the Qur’an, in Surah Al Hijr, chapter 15 verse 9

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."

MORE?

Visit
God Allah - Does It Mean God?
Is there evidence God Exists? What proof is there? Where is God? What is the Origin of God? Does God have limitations? Why did God create everything? Did God create evil too? Does God know future? Why so many religions? Can we prove Quran is from God? Why does Quran say, "We & He"? God of the Jews and Christians? Will all of us be treated equally?

Allah's Quran - Quran - A Guidance Without Doubt
All about Quran
A source of Guidance
Quran (Divine Book)
Quran-Proof of Revelation
What others Say
Quran Division?

[cozyk]

Okay, I give up. I'm out of my league. Too scholarly for me. It seems like people are just copy and pasting stuff and not just speaking plain English. It should not be this hard to follow.

[Peacekelsey]

Cozyk... I feel the same way, well... about giving up that is... Just because people throw around a bunch of words doesn't prove their points any further than us speaking from our hearts. It's a shame that people can't just agree to disagree. Can't we all just agree that there is a God or creator... and the rest isn't really as important. It's sad that people can't come together because of the restrictions of religions... I'm sure God wouldn't have this going on back and forth... Happy Easter to all!

[cozyk]

Cozyk...I feel the same way, well...about giving up that is...Just b/c people throw around a bunch of words doesn't prove their points any further than us speaking from our hearts. It's a shame that people can't just agree to disagree. Can't we all just agree that there is a God or creator...and the rest isn't really as important. It's sad that people can't come together b/c of the restrictions of religions.....I'm sure God wouldn't have this going on back and forth.....Happy Easter to all!

Don't you know it! Bottom line, there most likely is a creator of the universe. He/she/it wishes his creations would just be good boys and girls, be kind to one another, and help each other get through this life when times get tough. Everything else is just non-sense.
And you are right. No amount of big words, lofty proclamations, or declarations of truth REALLY matter.

[Peacekelsey]

Don't you know it! Bottom line, there most likely is a creator of the universe. He/she/it wishes his creations would just be good boys and girls, be kind to one another, and help each other get through this life when times get tough. Everything else is just non-sense.
And you are right. No amount of big words, lofty proclamations, or declarations of truth REALLY matter.

Beautifully said my friend!! :D

[malenymph13]

gromitt82,

I must admit that one line in one of your posts seems to accuse me of not believing in a world beyond ours. I also think that you said-maybe not so dramatically so-that I have no regard for my actions as long as they give me pleasure.

This is not at all what I meant. I feel that if you feel guilty, you have done something wrong. However, two people can do the same thing and perhaps not respond equally. This is not because they are evil but maybe because God never intended them to feel guilty about it otherwise he would have given them the means (other than the bible because not everyone is introduced to the bible) to feel that what they had done should make them feel guilty.

Does this make more sense than my original post? Sorry if I seem to be contradicting myself but you know how translations misinterpret meanings. That can happen from idea to written word to read word to conclusion... exhausting is it not?

[malenymph13]

On second thought I like what kelsey has said about agreeing that there is a God and letting it at peace. Obviously opinions are theories that we seek to prove by convincing others of their merit. I thank everyone for contributing though. Religious discussion just gets out of hand because it tends to turn into a persuasive thing. I know I am guilty of this. There is no discussion... just one question: Do you believe? If you wish to share ideas you must do it with the intention of record keeping and not for influence however others opinions and ideas are always healthy to hear because you may be able to learn from them. Though, that should probably only be done after hours and hours and hours and hours of getting to know someone. Wow, I sound like such and unresolute child. PEACE

[Peaceful1]

Hi,
I believe that no religion is completely right for the fact that all people are individual and can not follow a list of rules agreed--not entirely--by a group of people who may be "too devout" for their own good. However, I do believe that every religion, no matter how bogus it may be does hold some truth. Religion is an organization and something like faith should not be organized but random and individual. On the other hand, you should have your own methods and ideas for how you follow the "Higher Power". Continuing on that note, do you also believe that what might be considered wrong, evil, a sin(or whatever slang you sling) for one person could be done with the same intention for another person and not be wrong at all?

Please, I welcome your opinions on this topic?

The Quran offers something that is not offered by other religious scriptures, in particular, and other religions, in general. It is what scientists demand.Today there are many people who have ideas and theories about how the universe works. These people are all over the place, but the scientific community does not even bother to listen to them. This is because within the last century the scientific community has demanded a test of falsification. They say, If you have theory, do not bother us with it unless you bring with that theory a way for us to prove whether you are wrong or not.
Such a test was exactly why the scientific community listened to Einstein towards the beginning of the century. He came with a new theory and said, I believe the universe works like this; and here are three ways to prove whether I am wrong! So the scientific community subjected his theory to the tests, and within six years it passed all three. Of course, this does not prove that he was great, but it proves that he deserved to be listened to because he said, This is my idea; and if you want to try to prove me wrong, do this or try that.
This is exactly what the Quran has - falsification tests. Some are old (in that they have already been proven true), and some still exist today. Basically it states, If this book is not what it claims to be, then all you have to do is this or this or this to prove that it is false. Of course, in 1400 years no one has been able to do This or this or this, and thus it is still considered true and authentic.

Islam provides man with a chance to verify it authenticity and prove it wrong occurs in the 4th chapter. It states (Surah An-Nisa, 4:82):
Do they not consider the Quran? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.
This is a clear challenge to the non-Muslim. Basically, it invites him to find a mistake. As a matter of fact, the seriousness and difficulty of the challenge aside, the actual presentation of such a challenge in the first place is not even in human nature and is inconsistent with mans personality. One doesn't take an exam in school and after finishing the exam, write a note to the instructor at the end saying, This exam is perfect. There are no mistakes in it. Find one if you can! One just doesn't do that. The teacher would not sleep until he found a mistake! And yet this is the way the Quran approaches people.

For any religion to be pure and authentic, its scriptures should not contain any interpolation, addition, deletion or revision. Moreover the religions source of inspiration and direction should be Almighty God. The Quran is the only religious scripture on the face of the earth which has been maintained it its original form. All the other religious scriptures, of all the other religions have interpolations, additions, deletions or revisions. The Quran has been in the memory of a multitude of people, intact in its original form ever since its revelation, and now there are hundreds of thousands of people who have preserved it in their memory. Moreover, if you compare the copies made by Caliph Uthman from the original Quran which is yet present in the museum in Tashkent and in Koptaki museum in Turkey, they are the same as the ones we possess today.

Allah (swt) promises in the Quran, in Surah Al Hijr, chapter 15 verse 9

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."

Allah Himself, has promised to preserve the Quran until the Last Days. And He has

It is the only book on earth that, if you destroyed every book on earth, we would be able to bring it back exactly as it was, every single letter from cover to cover, by the permission of Allah.

You are most welcome to review the facts and consider for yourself. The Quran makes claims within itself to its own authenticity

"This is the Book (Qur'an) wherein there is no doubt."
"If you are in doubt about it, bring a book like...

MORE?
visit

God Allah - Does It Mean God?
Why did God create everything?Did God create evil too? Does God know future? Why so many religions? Is there evidence God Exists? What proof is there? Where is God? What is the Origin of God? Does God have limitations? Did God create evil too? Does God know future? Why so many religions? Can we prove Quran is from God? God of the Jews & Christians? Will all of us be treated equally?

Allah's Quran - Quran - A Guidance Without Doubt
All about The Quran
A source of Guidance
Quran (Divine Book)
Quran - Proof of Revelation
What Others Say
Quran Division?

[Peacekelsey]

The Quran offers something that is not offered by other religious scriptures, in particular, and other religions, in general. It is what scientists demand.Today there are many people who have ideas and theories about how the universe works. These people are all over the place, but the scientific community does not even bother to listen to them. This is because within the last century the scientific community has demanded a test of falsification. They say, If you have theory, do not bother us with it unless you bring with that theory a way for us to prove whether you are wrong or not.
Such a test was exactly why the scientific community listened to Einstein towards the beginning of the century. He came with a new theory and said, I believe the universe works like this; and here are three ways to prove whether I am wrong! So the scientific community subjected his theory to the tests, and within six years it passed all three. Of course, this does not prove that he was great, but it proves that he deserved to be listened to because he said, This is my idea; and if you want to try to prove me wrong, do this or try that.
This is exactly what the Quran has - falsification tests. Some are old (in that they have already been proven true), and some still exist today. Basically it states, If this book is not what it claims to be, then all you have to do is this or this or this to prove that it is false. Of course, in 1400 years no one has been able to do This or this or this, and thus it is still considered true and authentic.

Islam provides man with a chance to verify it authenticity and prove it wrong occurs in the 4th chapter. It states (Surah An-Nisa, 4:82):
Do they not consider the Quran? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.
This is a clear challenge to the non-Muslim. Basically, it invites him to find a mistake. As a matter of fact, the seriousness and difficulty of the challenge aside, the actual presentation of such a challenge in the first place is not even in human nature and is inconsistent with mans personality. One doesnt take an exam in school and after finishing the exam, write a note to the instructor at the end saying, This exam is perfect. There are no mistakes in it. Find one if you can! One just doesnt do that. The teacher would not sleep until he found a mistake! And yet this is the way the Quran approaches people.

For any religion to be pure and authentic, its scriptures should not contain any interpolation, addition, deletion or revision. Moreover the religions source of inspiration and direction should be Almighty God. The Quran is the only religious scripture on the face of the earth which has been maintained it its original form. All the other religious scriptures, of all the other religions have interpolations, additions, deletions or revisions. The Quran has been in the memory of a multitude of people, intact in its original form ever since its revelation, and now there are hundreds of thousands of people who have preserved it in their memory. Moreover, if you compare the copies made by Caliph Uthman from the original Quran which is yet present in the museum in Tashkent and in Koptaki museum in Turkey, they are the same as the ones we possess today.

Allah (swt) promises in the Quran, in Surah Al Hijr, chapter 15 verse 9

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)."

Allah Himself, has promised to preserve the Quran until the Last Days. And He has

It is the only book on earth that, if you destroyed every book on earth, we would be able to bring it back exactly as it was, every single letter from cover to cover, by the permission of Allah.

You are most welcome to review the facts and consider for yourself. The Quran makes claims within itself to its own authenticity

"This is the Book (Qur'an) wherein there is no doubt."
"If you are in doubt about it, bring a book like...

MORE?
visit

God Allah - Does It Mean God?
Why did God create everything?Did God create evil too? Does God know future? Why so many religions? Is there evidence God Exists? What proof is there? Where is God? What is the Origin of God? Does God have limitations? Did God create evil too? Does God know future? Why so many religions? Can we prove Quran is from God? God of the Jews & Christians? Will all of us be treated equally?

Allah's Quran - Quran - A Guidance Without Doubt
All about The Quran
A source of Guidance
Quran (Divine Book)
Quran - Proof of Revelation
What Others Say
Quran Division?

Appreciate your continuous posts... but I think this topic is over. Let it rest. Thanks.

[Peacekelsey]

On second thought I like what kelsey has said about agreeing that their is a God and letting it at peace. Obviously opinions are theories that we seek to prove by convincing others of their merit. I thank everyone for contributing though. Religious discussion just gets out of hand because it tends to turn into a persuasive thing. I know I am guilty of this. There is no discussion...just one question: Do you believe? If you wish to share ideas you must do it with the intention of record keeping and not for influence however others opinions and ideas are always healthy to hear because you may be able to learn from them. Though, that should probably only be done after hours and hours and hours and hours of getting to know someone. Wow, I sound like such and unresolute child. PEACE

Thanks Malen! I'm so sorry the topic had to go this far. But its true, as long as you know that God exists and you appreciate every moment that you live... you'll be fine. If you find comfort in religion then that's great! But if it's not for you, that's just as great. Don't let anyone pressure you into believing something that you don't feel right believing. You do not need to believe in a religion to be loved by God. Just thank him for all the beautiful experiences he's allowed us to have. I hope this helps. May you have a blessed journey hun! Peace, Kelsey.

[gromitt82]

gromitt82,

I must admit that one line in one of your posts seems to accuse me of not believing in a world beyond ours. I also think that you said-maybe not so dramatically so-that I have no regard for my actions as long as they give me pleasure.

This is not at all what I meant. I feel that if you feel guilty, you have done something wrong. However, two people can do the exact same thing and perhaps not respond equally. This is not because they are evil but maybe because God never intended them to feel guilty about it otherwise he would have given them the means (other than the bible because not everyone is introduced to the bible) to feel that what they had done should make them feel guilty.

Does this make more sense than my original post? Sorry if I seem to be contradicting myself but you know how translations misinterpret meanings. That can happen from idea to written word to read word to conclusion....exhausting is it not?

God made us free to determine our own behaviour according to our own decisions and whims. And God made us all alike (Bible or no Bible). I mean, as all living beings in our Planet, we all have instincts and basic needs; human, on top, also have feelings, which are equal irrespective of colour and/or provenance.

Most assassins, serial killers or serial rapists do not show any sign of feeling guilty at all which I do not think it implies that God “never intended them to feel guilty”. They just kill because they are wicked psychopaths who actually enjoy what they are doing...

What I do think is that God created us and provided us with a sort of natural law normal humans abide by, irrespective of their religion.

Later on, God gave Moses the 10 Commandments that substantially are the same of this Natural Law.

So when normal people do something that goes against that Natural Law they are sorry for the intimately know they have done something wrong.

What matters, therefore, is what you actually feel inside you, not what you pretend to be the reason of your behaviour.

More often than not, we tend to justify our actions in front of others by using a somewhat lenient ethics which we have built to suit us, as a tailor-made dress.

This is why I wished you good luck, a bit ironically; because, irrespective of how you may justify your behaviour and of what you believe, you will eventually be judged by the Creator in function of his Justice NOT of ours.
:):)

[cozyk]

What matters, therefore, is what you actually feel inside you, not what you pretend to be the reason of your behaviour.

I couldn't agree more with this statement.;)

[gromitt82]

I appreciate all your efforts in using all these big words but Lordy Lordy, I get a headache trying to un-twist them into common speak. Could you give it to me again in simple layman's terms please?

OK, even English is not my native language, but Spanish, I will try to make my previous post more “edible” to you.

You are driving on the NY highway and you can see nobody in miles and miles of road ahead of you. Still you are respecting the 65 mph limit because that’s the Law. At a given moment you push a little on the gas pedal and reach the 90 mph. But almost immediately you feel sorry and go back to the 65 mph speed. That’s PERFECT CONTRITION. You are sincerely sorry for breaking the Law.

The same situation as before. But when you have reached the 90 mph you reduce your speed back to the 65 mph because YOU HAVE SPOTTED A BIG BILLBOARD behind which you know a police car may eventually hide. So you reduce your speed FOR FEAR you may receive a fine from the cops.

That is ATRITION or IMPERFECT CONTRITION.

In both cases you abide by the law. But in the first case you do it because you are obedient, while in the other you do it for fear of the consequences.
Got it?:):)

[classyT]

I couldn't agree more with this statement.;)

Cozyk,

There is a way that seemeth right unto man, but the END thereof is the way of death. Proverbs 16:25.

I know this verse won't make you stop and say... Wow Tess THAT is in the Bible. Lol but I could resist quoting it. It is the what God thinks of man's thoughts and feelings outside of scripture. Course, if you don't think the Bible is truth, it doesn't mean much. But I thought I'd throw it out there anyway. Something to consider. :)

[cozyk]

THANK YOU Gromitt, so much better. I think I am guilty of both. I feel guilty when I do wrong because I know I've disappointed something that is bigger and better than me. On top of that, the chance of getting caught can also inter into the equation. But I have to say contrition is my biggest motivating factor.

[cozyk]

Cozyk,

There is a way that seemeth right unto man, but the END thereof is the way of death. Proverbs 16:25.

I know this verse won't make you stop and say...Wow Tess THAT is in the Bible. lol but i could resist quoting it. it is the what God thinks of man's thoughts and feelings outside of scripture. course, if you don't think the Bible is truth, it doesn't mean much. But i thought i'd throw it out there anyways. Something to consider. :)

Thanks for trying Class. I get the first part, "what seems right or feels right inside to man." But, the second part "but the END thereof is the way of death. What exactly does that mean? Doing what feels right inside will be the death of us... literally? And it won't be very nice?

[Universon]

Don't you know it! Bottom line, there most likely is a creator of the universe. He/she/it wishes his creations would just be good boys and girls, be kind to one another, and help each other get through this life when times get tough.

I strongly disagree. The Universe doesn't care at all what we do here on Earth. It's entirely up to us how we behave. The Creator has way bigger things to care for. This explains all this CHAOS around.