[Akoue]

We all know that Christ chose the Twelve. We also know that after Judas's betrayal and death the remaining eleven Apostles chose Matthias to replace him and to retain the original number of twelve Apostles. So my question is, How many Apostles were there? Was Matthias really an Apostle? Was Paul an Apostle?

[De Maria]

We all know that Christ chose the Twelve. We also know that after Judas's betrayal and death the remaining eleven Apostles chose Matthias to replace him and to retain the original number of twelve Apostles. So my question is, How many Apostles were there? Was Matthias really an Apostle? Was Paul an Apostle?

Apostle means "sent out".

There were 12 original Apostles. One of thoese was Judas Iscariot.

Matthias was chosen by God to replace Judas. We know that Matthias selection was approved by God because the Apostles drew lots and the lot fell on Matthias. Since we don't believe in chance but that God decides everything, we know that Matthias selection was approved by God.

In a sense, Matthias was the first Bishop appointed by the Church. He filled an empty "bishoprick". All the Bishops are Apostles selected by Apostles in the line of the Apostles. They have the same task. To oversee the Church. But there is only one set of original Apostles.

St. Paul was selected by Jesus, Apostle to the Gentiles. He is not one of the Original 12 Apostles. Nor was he selected to replace "Judas". Matthias was selected to fill that slot. But St. Paul was sent out in addition to the 12 with a mandate which had an emphasis on Gentile converts.

That is the extent of the Apostles sent out directly by God.

The original 12, Matthias and St. Paul.

Bishops are Apostles of the Church. However, we are all sent out. We are all apostles sent out to carry the good news of Jesus Christ to the world.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[homesell]

I believe that the apostles were not filled with the holy spirit(pre-pentecost) when they took it upon themselves to select a replacement for Judas. It isn't unusual for believers to move ahead and "help God out" as Abraham did by having sex with his slave woman so that he would have an heir and fulfill God's purpose with his timing instead of Gods. You will notice that Matthias is mentioned this one time and then is never heard from again. You mentioned that God chose Matthias and Jesus chose Paul. What's the difference? One of the qualifications to being an apostle was being with Jesus. Paul claims he was chosen by God-not men- as Matthias was and that he spent 3 years with Jesus after his conversion on the road to Damascus. Matthias never did anything at all that we know of and to scholars knowledge never claimed to chosen for the apostles position by anyone other then the other men. Besides, in the book of revelation 21:14 it says the wall of the city had twelve foundations and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Judas' name won't be there and I have to really lean toward Paul's name being much more likely to be there than Matthias.

[Akoue]

I believe that the apostles were not filled with the holy spirit(pre-pentecost) when they took it upon themselves to select a replacement for Judas. It isn't unusual for believers to move ahead and "help God out" as Abraham did by having sex with his slave woman so that he would have an heir and fulfill God's purpose with his timing instead of Gods. You will notice that Matthias is mentioned this one time and then is never heard from again. You mentioned that God chose Matthias and Jesus chose Paul. What's the difference? One of the qualifications to being an apostle was being with Jesus. Paul claims he was chosen by God-not men- as Matthias was and that he spent 3 years with Jesus after his conversion on the road to Damascus. Matthias never did anything at all that we know of and to scholars knowledge never claimed to chosen for the apostles position by anyone other then the other men. Besides, in the book of revelation 21:14 it says the wall of the city had twelve foundations and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Judas' name won't be there and I have to really lean toward Paul's name being much more likely to be there than Matthias.

At Acts 1.24, we are told that the eleven remaining Apostles prayed to God saying, "Show us which one of these two you have chosen". This seems to indicate pretty clearly that Matthias was chosen by God. While it is certainly true that Paul was an apostle, he nowhere claims to have been Judas's replacement. Acts 1, on the other hand, clearly tells us that Matthias was Judas's replacement. As for never doing anything that we know of: Isn't the same true of many of the Twelve?

If the Apostles were not filled with the Holy Spirit "pre-Pentecost", why at John 20.22 do we read, "When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'"?

What is your take on these?

[homesell]

When the apostles put two names in a hat (so to speak)and intend to pick out one, does it matter if they pray to God or devil? One name is going to come out no matter what. Instead of letting God choose Paul, headstrong and impetuos Peter decided he needed to "help God out" and talked the others into this "vote" Just like in America, you are sadly mistaken if you think a 3rd party has a chance of getting elected president. The president is going to be a republican or a democrat. Period.
As for John 20:22 you're right. They most likely had the Holy Spirit at that time. I had forgotten that passage. Thank you for pointing it out. I still believe that even with the Holy Spirit in them they may have taken things into their own hands thinking they were doing Gods will. All through history there have been true believers who thought they were doing Gods will but weren't. Another example of Peter misunderstanding is his early refusal to hang out with or share the gospel with Gentiles... Paul had to correct Peter.

[Tj3]

When the apostles put two names in a hat (so to speak)and intend to pick out one, does it matter if they pray to God or devil? One name is gonna come out no matter what. Instead of letting God choose Paul, headstrong and impetuos Peter decided he needed to "help God out" and talked the others into this "vote" Just like in America, you are sadly mistaken if you think a 3rd party has a chance of getting elected president. The president is going to be a republican or a democrat. Period.
As for John 20:22 you're right. They most likely had the Holy Spirit at that time. I had forgotten that passage. Thank you for pointing it out. I still believe that even with the Holy Spirit in them they may have taken things into their own hands thinking they were doing Gods will. All through history there have been true believers who thought they were doing Gods will but weren't. Another example of Peter misunderstanding is his early refusal to hang out with or share the gospel with Gentiles... Paul had to correct Peter.

Right. Scripture is clear that there ever were only 12 Apostles, and just having the Holy Spirit (as all belivers do) does not guarantee that we are always right. Though the Holy Spirit guides us, we don't always listen clearly.

[classyT]

Right. Scripture is clear that there ever were only 12 Apostles, and just having the Holy Spirit (as all belivers do) does not guarantee that we are always right. Though the Holy Spirit guides us, we don't always listen clearly.

EXACTLY!! But tj3 what do you do with someone like Cozyk, who is looking for Christianity and she sees some SERIOUS flaws! It appears that MOST of us do disagree on things. WE both have serious issues with works added to salvation. Do you believe that you can be a Christian and add something to the finished work of Christ?

[homesell]

If a person has the spirit of God living in them, they are saved now and forever. If they don't have the spirit of God living in them, they are currently lost(which doesn't mean to say they won't someday have the living God inside them.)
It is not up to me or anyone else to decide if a person has the spirit of God in them. Their relationship with God is just that - their relationship with God.

"Sitting in a church will no more make you a Christian than sitting in a henhouse will make you a chicken."

[Tj3]

EXACTLY!! But tj3 what do you do with someone like Cozyk, who is looking for Christianity and she sees some SERIOUS flaws! It appears that MOST of us do disagree on things.

Usually when people say that they see seriously flaws in Christianity, they mean that they see serious flaws in Christians (inconsistency, sin, disagreements, etc.). I say that I agree. That is because non of us have yet reached perfection, and we won't while we are in these bodies.

Scondly, there are disagreements between people who profess to be Christians sometimes because people who profess to be have not actually received Jesus as Saviour. Jesus said as much in Matthew 7. There cannot be haqrmony of Spirit with those who do not have the indwelling of the Spirit.

So Cozyk and others are right in that there are indeed inconsistencies and sin and other serious flaws in church organizations and with those who profess to be Christians. But that does not take away from the inerrancy of God's word and from the truth of who He is and what He has done and will do.

Scripture speaks about "love of truth". I believe that if a person has "love of truth", whether they are presently saved or not, God will lead them towards His truth. There is nothing wrong with questioning - indeed if a person is questioning with a open mind and is serious regarding their questions, that is great.

Can there be disagreements amongst Christians and yet those on both sides be saved? Yes, it really depends upon the issue. If a person denies that our salvation comes through the death of Jesus on the cross, then no, they cannot be saved. Harmony on the essentials of the Christian faith is critical.

WE both have serious issues with works added to salvation. Do you believe that you can be a Christian and add something to the finished work of Christ?

That is a loaded question! ;)

We cannot add anything to the finsihed work of Christ.

Is it possible that some maay be misled into believing that works are necessary and yet be saved? Yes, I believe that is possible. But I also believe that love of truth means that they will be willing to submit to sound Biblical teaching and will submit their own opinions to what God's word has to say, and will subsequently be drawn by God's work to accept the truth that it is ONLY by His sacrifice on the cross that we are saved.

[arcura]

I must agree with De Maria and Akoue because I read the bible to says what they have posted on this topic.
In the end there were 12 original apostles chosen by God (not Judas) and plus one (Paul) whom God the son chose after he had ascended.
The bible is clear on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[homesell]

When the apostles put two names in a hat (so to speak)and intend to pick out one, does it matter if they pray to God or devil? One name is gonna come out no matter what. Instead of letting God choose Paul, headstrong and impetuos Peter decided he needed to "help God out" and talked the others into this "vote" Just like in America, you are sadly mistaken if you think a 3rd party has a chance of getting elected president. The president is going to be a republican or a democrat. Period.

Do you think Matthias, chosen by men, will be one of the twelve in the foundation wall of the new jerusalem in Revelation? Or Paul, chosen directly by Jesus. It can't be both.

(not that this really matters because we can't prove one way or the other.)

[adam7gur]

What about all those decisions made by men in the OT when the gift of the Holy Spirit was not yet given?Do you believe that only the supernatural things that happened were God's choise?And what about the sun that comes out every day, whose choise is that?I don't hear God's voice every day ordering the sun to come out, does this make it not God's will?Before our meals do we not pray to God and thank Him and doesn't this make our food clean?I do not see anything supernatural happening every time I thank God for my food, still I believe by faith that my food is clean and blessed.
No matter how glorious Paul's ministry was, he was not one of the twelve.Does this make him any less than the twelve?Do you think he would argue with Matthias about that?Do you think those two fight over a chair?
What about the prophets of the OT?Should Isaiah feel dissapointed because Jesus said that there is no greater prophet than John the baptist even though the Bible nowhere mentions that John did supernatural things like Elijah,Moses or others.There is not even a prophecy like the one made by other prophets of the OT that John did, still he is the greater.
Do not judge like men.Matthias is as much God's choice as Paul is too, as you and me are today also!
And if we think that Paul is something more than he is then we should think the following..
James 2:1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

2For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

3And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

4Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

5Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

6But ye have despised the poor.

Let us be more careful !

[homesell]

adam7gur,
Of course I agree with you. God is in control and everything is by his divine direction. I was simply pointing out that Paul was chosen directly by Jesus, Matthias was not.
This is one of the things that doesn't really matter what one believes on this question one way or the other.

[adam7gur]

If the Apostles were not filled with the Holy Spirit "pre-Pentecost", why at John 20.22 do we read, "When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'"?

What is your take on these?

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost

The following is from theholyspirit.com
In the Old Testament the Hebrew word (ruwach, pronounced roo'-akh) was used when talking about the Spirit. This word literally means WIND, even the wind associated with a BREATHE! In the New Testament the Greek word (pneuma, pronounced pnyoo'-mah) was used which means the BREATHE or a BREEZE! We can literally think of the Holy Spirit as the "Breathe of God!"
The following are my thoughts.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God(Breathe of God) moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(God); and man became a living soul.
The Breathe of life,the Breathe of God,the Spirit,the Ruwach is what gives life to creation and to man.
Adam and Eve were alive not just biological but mostly by the chance to be in the likeness of God and that is LIFE!
But by sin death came and they and therfeore we, lost that privillege.
Christ overcame death and gave us this gift back, that's why after His resurrection and before Him leaving this world He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.
What He did at that moment is what He did when He created Adam in Genesis.
He gave us the right to be in His likeness and THAT IS LIFE ,the Breathe of Life, the Breathe of God, the Ruwach!Just like what was given to man in Genesis through the Breath of God,the Spirit of God,exactly the same was given to us again because we lost it!
This is something different from Pentecost and the anointing of the Holy Spirit that comes with the gifts of the Holy Spirit like speaking in tongues!

[adam7gur]

adam7gur,
Of course I agree with you. God is in control and everything is by his divine direction. I was simply pointing out that Paul was chosen directly by Jesus, Matthias was not.
This is one of the things that doesn't really matter what one believes on this question one way or the other.

But I say that Matthias was directly chosen by Jesus through His desciples just as the Bible is given to us directly by God through His people.
And I believe that this matters because we could say that something is not God's choise/will ,when it really is.
We have to see as He sees, and judge as He judges!
Thank you for your time Jeff!

[homesell]

Adam7gur,
By directly, I meant not through any other means.
By not mattering what we believe on this I meant that we have no definite proof one way or the other. God definitely made a choice and expressed his will. Just I see it one way and you see another. Both perspectives are valid with arguments from either side in favor of each position... This isn't like contending about whether one needs to be born again or not, which we know is quite clear.

[arcura]

Interesting discussion on this.
I like it.
Agree mostly with Adam so far.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

But I say that Matthias was directly chosen by Jesus through His desciples just as the Bible is given to us directly by God through His people.

Just because the disciples did it does not in and of itself mean that Jesus endorsed it. Indeed, all of the other Apostles were directly and personally chosen by Jesus. We see nothing which shows God's endorsement of Matthias as an Apostle. That is not to say that he was not a good Christian leader, but all indiactions are that he was man's choice, not God's choice.

[arcura]

I do believe that Jesus did indeed endorse the selection of Matthias for He told them that He was with them even to the ends of the earth.
Jesus was closer to them than anyone that came a long later.
Fred

[adam7gur]

Just because the disciples did it does not in and of itself mean that Jesus endorsed it. Indeed, all of the other Apostles were directly and personally chosen by Jesus. We see nothing which shows God's endorsement of Matthias as an Apostle. That is not to say that he was not a good Christian leader, but all indiactions are that he was man's choice, not God's choice.

So you say that all those chosen directly by Jesus apostles sinned because they did not wait for so many years to substitude Judas?Do you mean it was a mistake, a false decision?If so , then why don't we see Jesus correcting them?
He was God's choice through God's desciples,as much the miracles performed by God's desciples are not theirs but God's miracles.