[Tj3]

Tj3,
It is what I read in the holy bible.
I have 8 different versions and they all agree on that.
Fred

Fred,

Really? Perhaps you can tell me which verse says that Jesus directly and personally chose Matthias, and which verse says that there are thousands of Apostles.

I have several dozen different versions and would be quite pleased to check out your claim.

[arcura]

Tj3,
THAT has been discussed several times here.
There is no need to go through it all again.
Obviously you read the bible differently than I and others do.
That has been going on for several centuries.
It's not new.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
THAT has been discussed several times here.
There is no need to go through it all again.
Obviously you read the bible differently than I and others do.

I read what it says, and so far NO ONE on here has shown any verses that either says that Jesus personally and directly chose Matthias or that there are thousands of Apostles.

And apparently you are not able to provide such verses either.

[adam7gur]

The spirit you demonstrate is the spirit of the scribes.You keep on saying '' where in scripture this and where in scripture that'', but it is for spirits like this that Jesus spoke in parables so that with their ears they may hear but not understand!
It is that same spirit that convicted Jesus for accusing Him for not doing things by scripture while this spirit kept on twisting His words.
No grace came out of this spirit,when Jesus healed people on the Sabbath that spirit could not be happy about it because no grace is in it,only self justification and it kept on screaming ''Where in scripture is it written that you can heal someone on the Sabbath . Note that even Satan tempted the Lord through scripture. Jesus is the scripture and He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Now that we know about Christ if we keep on judging that way we will be in a more worse position than those who killed Him.
No matter how many verses , how many parables,how many miracles, that spirit is never convinced about the truth because it does not care about the truth, it only cares about itself.It does not want to come to the truth and because it does not come to the truth , it tries to block others to come to the truth.
I pray for people that are under its tyranny to be freed!

[adam7gur]

Yes. If you disagree, show me where Jesus directly and personally called him.

Tom
Correct me if I am wrong but did you not say ''Nor am I saying that Matthias was in any way a false leader. He was no doubt a godly man and a capable Christian leader, or he would not have been considered for the role of an Apostle ''?
Does this not make him like one of these people ''Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
No doubt , Matthias is like one of these people and for all those , Paul says...
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Who called those people if not Jesus?

[homesell]

Tom
Does this not make him like one of these people ''Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
No doubt , Matthias is like one of these people and for all those , Paul says...
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Who called those people if not Jesus?

Hello adam7gur,
The verses quoted by you above apply to all of us that are believers today and ever since Pentecost.
We could say we are all apostles only in the sense that apostle means special messenger and we are all called to give the Good news about Jesus to all that we can.
There are only 13 that Jesus personally appeared to and said that he was choosing them or he had chosen them. The original 12(remember Jesus said speaking to the 12 in the upper room at the last supper, "did I not choose all of you? Yet one of you is a devil."
The 13th chosen directly by Jesus was Paul. We know Judas is destined for hell and that leaves 12. Why do I keep answering this question and promising to stop? Because these questions aren't beneficial and only cause dissension among my brothers. Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in.

[Akoue]

Good. And since there are only 12, that makes Paul the 12th.

But, of course, there weren't only twelve. 1Thess.1.1 and 2.6 tell us that Silas and Timothy were apostles; Acts 14.14 tells us that Barnabas was an apostle; 1Cor.4.9 tells us that Apollos was an apostle.

As for Matthias, Acts 1.24 indicates that God chose Matthias ("which one you have chosen"--this shows us that God's choice of Matthias preceded the casting of lots, which procedure was undertaken so that God's decision would be made manifest to the remaining members of the Twelve).

Tj3 is mistaken. I have just shown that Scripture tells us that there were more than twelve apostles. Moreover, Scripture is clear that the choice of Matthias was God's. The use of the past tense ("which one you have chosen") fully accords with adam7gur's point that he was predstined, chosen by God before the foundation of the world.

This thread seems to me to have outlived its usefulness as Tom has made it quite clear that his refusal to take Scripture at its word is motivated not by a desire to reach a deeper understanding of Scripture but by the fact that he has seen people appeal to the selection of Matthias in order to give Scriptural support for something he personally doesn't like (apostolic succession?). Despite adam7gur's patient efforts, this stopped being an honest discussion quite some time ago. As the OP, I ask that the mods please close this thread.

[Tj3]

The spirit you demonstrate is the spirit of the scribes.You keep on saying '' where in scripture this and where in scripture that'', but it is for spirits like this that Jesus spoke in parables so that with their ears they may hear but not understand!

You would be more effective dealing with the topic than continually making demeaning comments about people who disagree with you.

[Tj3]

But, of course, there weren't only twelve. 1Thess.1.1 and 2.6 tell us that Silas and Timothy were apostles; Acts 14.14 tells us that Barnabas was an apostle; 1Cor.4.9 tells us that Apollos was an apostle.

I've have seen and refuted the claims so many times that there were more than 12 Apostles. Of course you still have that annoying comment that God put in His word about there only being 12.

As for Matthias, Acts 1.24 indicates that God chose Matthias ("which one you have chosen"--this shows us that God's choice of Matthias preceded the casting of lots, which procedure was undertaken so that God's decision would be made manifest to the remaining members of the Twelve).

It shows that they believed that God had chosen Him, just as you do. They tried to help out God just as Abraham did in Genesis 16.

Tj3 is mistaken. I have just shown that Scripture tells us that there were more than twelve apostles. Moreover, Scripture is clear that the choice of Matthias was God's. The use of the past tense ("which one you have chosen") fully accords with adam7gur's point that he was predstined, chosen by God before the foundation of the world.

As homesell pointed out, this applies to all believers.

As the OP, I ask that the mods please close this thread.

I agree. Once a thread starts degenerating into demeaning comments about other people who are respectfully engaging in discussion, the usefulness of the thread has probably diminished.

[JoeT777]

But, of course, there weren't only twelve. 1Thess.1.1 and 2.6 tell us that Silas and Timothy were apostles; Acts 14.14 tells us that Barnabas was an apostle; 1Cor.4.9 tells us that Apollos was an apostle.

As for Matthias, Acts 1.24 indicates that God chose Matthias ("which one you have chosen"--this shows us that God's choice of Matthias preceded the casting of lots, which procedure was undertaken so that God's decision would be made manifest to the remaining members of the Twelve).

Tj3 is mistaken. I have just shown that Scripture tells us that there were more than twelve apostles. Moreover, Scripture is clear that the choice of Matthias was God's. The use of the past tense ("which one you have chosen") fully accords with adam7gur's point that he was predstined, chosen by God before the foundation of the world.

I think this thread is quite useful.

So then in your opinion, God is still revealing himself outside of Scripture through Apostolic successors? If not then, where did Paul come from? Don't his epistles reveal God's truth?

JoeT

[sndbay]

Perhaps this will help for a reference:

Appendixes to The Companion Bible
Dr. E.W. Bullinger
189. APOSTLES : ELDERS : PROPHETS

Apostles: Elders: Prophets. - Appendix to the Companion Bible

[arcura]

I MUST AGREE with Adam, Akoue, and Joe.
They have clearly shown that there were more than 12 apostles.
I accept what they have shown.
Others may not but that is their personal choice.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

I MUST AGREE with Adam, Akoue, and Joe.
They have clearly shown that there were more than 12 apostles.
I accept what they have shown.
Others may not but that is their personal choice.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

They have shown that they believe that there are, but scripture says that, other than Jesus, there are ONLY 12 TRUE Apostles.

I'll believe the Bible.

[arcura]

Tj3,
So says you.
I do not agree.
Sorry.
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
So says you.
I do not agree.
Sorry.
Fred

As you wish Fred. I will not take my eyes off God's word whether you agree or not.

[arcura]

Tj3,
I also will not take my eyes, of belief, or faith off God's Holy Word.
That is what I do and will stand by.
Thanks,
Fred

[Akoue]

I think this thread is quite useful.

So then in your opinion, God is still revealing himself outside of Scripture through Apostolic successors? If not then, where did Paul come from? Don’t his epistles reveal God’s truth?

JoeT

Hi Joe. Good to hear from you.

Here's what I think (make of it what you will): Scripture is clear that there were more than twelve apostles. Acts 14.14 refers to "the apostles Barnabas and Paul". 1 Thessalonians 1.1 is a salutation from Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy and 1Thess.2.7 says "we were able to impose our weight as apostles of Christ". So these verses make it perfectly clear that there were more apostles than just the Twelve.

Adam7gur has pointed to Scriptures which refer to the office of apostle alongside other offices (or ministries). Now, to be sure, the Twelve had a special standing among apostles, but just as clearly, Barnabas and Timothy are said by Scripture to have been apostles. So there's that.

Nowhere does Scripture say that there were "only" twelve apostles. Our dear Tj3 has added the word "only" to Scripture in order to try to get some leverage. But he hasn't shown us a single verse which says unambiguously that there were only ever twelve apostles. This, taken together with the clear affirmation at Acts 14.14 that Barnabas was an apostle and at 1Thess.2.7 that Timothy was an apostle seem to me to doom the claim that there could only ever be twelve. So there's that.

Now, returning to Matthias: I've already quoted Scripture which shows the remaining eleven (after Judas's death) addressing God in prayer and unambiguously affirming that Matthias was God's choice ("you have chosen"), a choice made known through the casting of lots. The casting of lots, notice, was not the mechanism by which the choice was made by the eleven. The choice was God's and the casting of lots was rather the mechanism by which God's choice was revealed to the eleven. So there's that.

It is my suspicion that Tom's reason for digging in his heels and pretending that Rev. says that there were "only" twelve apostles (and ignoring what Scripture says about Barnabas and Timothy) is that he doesn't like the idea of apostolic succession. In an earlier post to homesell, he seems to me to have gestured in this direction (he said there that he gets passionate about this because he has seen people appeal to the selection of Matthias in order to license things he doesn't like).

It is my opinion that Scripture is clear that the selection of Matthias was made not by the eleven apostles but by God. It is my opinion that Scripture is clear that there were more than eleven apostles (Barnabas, Timothy). It is my opinion that these two facts, taken together, make it clear that apostolic succession is licensed by Scripture. And this, taken together with the fact that the writings of the first post-apostolic generation (Ignatius of Antioch--who was taught by Peter, Paul, and John--to name only one) affirm the practice of apostolic succession, encourages me to think that I'm probably not misunderstanding Scripture on this point.

I also think that apostolic succession is hugely important as a way of preserving the oral teachings transmitted by Christ and the Apostles. We know that Scripture does not contain the whole of God's revelation to his people because Scripture tells us to uphold and abide by oral teachings. The well-ordered succession of apostles is a way of preserving this body of teachings in the face of Gnostic preachers and others who teach heretical doctrines (like, for instance, the man-made and unscriptural doctrine of sola scriptura). The office (or ministry) of apostle is and has been vital to the survival of the faith, since it has preserved both the oral teachings of Christ and the Apostles as well as the Scriptures themselves.

[Tj3]

Nowhere does Scripture say that there were "only" twelve apostles.

Akoue, I was clear that there are more than 12, but scripture says that there were only 12 Apostles of the Lamb. Now, I don't know about you, but it is only the Apostles of the Lamb that I want to be associated with!

It is my suspicion that Tom's reason for digging in his heels and pretending that Rev. says that there were "only" twelve apostles (and ignoring what Scripture says about Barnabas and Timothy) is that he doesn't like the idea of apostolic succession. In an earlier post to homesell, he seems to me to have gestured in this direction (he said there that he gets passionate about this because he has seen people appeal to the selection of Matthias in order to license things he doesn't like).

Actually, that is not what I said - what I said was that I have seen people use the claims of more than 12 Apostles to claim falsely to be Apostles, with the result often abuse of power and authority that they do not legitimately have.

And I ignore nothing in scripture, nor do I ignore what scripture says about the limit of 12 Apostles.

[Akoue]

Akoue, I was clear that there are more than 12, but scripture says that there were only 12 Apostles of the Lamb. Now, I don't know about you, but it is only the Apostles of the Lamb that I want to be associated with!

What, pray tell, was Barnabas, then? (Oops, I just prayed to you. Naughty Akoue!) Acts 14.14 tells us unambiguously that he was an apostle. Would you have a problem being associated with Barnabas? How about Timothy? Scripture says that he too was an apostle.

And I ignore nothing in scripture, nor do I ignore what scripture says about the limit of 12 Apostles.

You are clearly mistaken, since Barnabas (Acts 14.14) and Timothy (1Thess.1.1 and 2.7) were also apostles. Clearly, then, there were more than twelve.

[JoeT777]

I also think that apostolic succession is hugely important as a way of preserving the oral teachings transmitted by Christ and the Apostles. We know that Scripture does not contain the whole of God's revelation to his people because Scripture tells us to uphold and abide by oral teachings. The well-ordered succession of apostles is a way of preserving this body of teachings in the face of Gnostic preachers and others who teach heretical doctrines (like, for instance, the man-made and unscriptural doctrine of sola scriptura). The office (or ministry) of apostle is and has been vital to the survival of the faith, since it has preserved both the oral teachings of Christ and the Apostles as well as the Scriptures themselves.

I’m reading Pope Benedict’s Jesus of Nazareth. In the introduction he asks where did Christ come from? Just how did THIS Galilean ‘burst’ onto the scene with a fully developed theology? What was his mission?

Why wasn’t He the Messiah expected by the Jews? Was it the ‘original twelve’ who were the start of an organized ‘Proto-Catholic Church’ or did it happen some 2 or 3 hundred years later? Were these twelve organized, commissioned, and assigned a mission? Scripture leaves no doubt that they were. They had a hierarchy, an established chain of command, and a temporary replacement for the head (the Vicar of Christ), and equally important, a means to pass on this authority from generation to generation. I contend that the twelve were even compartmentalized to some extent – that is each taking on a specialized ministry.

All of which seems as if it came right out of the box! The emphasis of Scripture on ‘One’ Church, One faith, One baptism, and being One with Christ bears out that Christ knew what he was doing, it was the will of God. Christ was not simply a product of societal winds like all earthly leaders are. He had a Divine mission which he completed. The mission was His Kingdom, the Catholic Church. No surprise to a Catholic, but all of which reflects rather poorly on the TJ3’s view; each to his own sola Scriptura each a church unto himself, doesn’t it?

JoeT