How many Apostles were there?

homesell · May 13, 2009, 04:13 AM

Acts 1:20 Peter quotes a verse taken out of context, "may another take his place of leadership" David is talking about the men that oppose him and falsely accuse him and what he would like to see happen to them. In verse 20 David ends by saying, "may this be the Lord's payment to my accusers, (plural)to those that speak evil of me."
In Acts 1:23 the Bible clearly says, "So they (the apostles) proposed two men... " and then asked God to show them which of the two that they the apostles had selected was to be the one by casting lots. Why did they cast lots if this was directly from God?
In Acts chapter 13:2-3, it is shown how God selects.
Paul, through inspiration of God, opens almost everyone of his letters by stating that he is an apostle called by God. Paul spent 3 years in Arabia during which time he says he received direct revelation from Jesus. Maybe one on one with Jesus counts more than Matthias being nearby but still an outsider from the twelve and certainly an outsider to the inner three, Peter, James, and John.

Tj3 · May 13, 2009, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

I do believe that Jesus did indeed endorse the selection of Matthias for He told them that He was with them even to the ends of the earth.
Jesus was closer to them than anyone that came a long later.
Fred

So you don't believe that Jesus meant that He would be with us until the ends of the earth?
What about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the promises that God made to believers about guiding us?

Do you believe that the Apostles were infallible?

Tj3 · May 13, 2009, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

So you say that all those chosen directly by Jesus apostles sinned because they did not wait for so many years to substitude Judas?

I think that often men of God make mistakes by choosing to try to help out God when they ought to wait upon Him and His timing.

If so , then why don't we see Jesus correcting them?

We cannot establish doctrine based upon silence of scripture. We don't know if He did or Did not. What we do know is that Jesus chose another Apostle and that we are told in God's word that there are only 12. So, we have 12 Apostles chosen directly and personally by God, and one who was not. And a total of 12. The math seems easy to me. ;)

arcura · May 13, 2009, 09:16 PM

adam7gur,
Right on, brother.
Fred

adam7gur · May 13, 2009, 11:21 PM

Joshua 14:2 By lot was their inheritance, as the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses, for the nine tribes, and for the half tribe.

Numbers 36:2 And they said, The LORD commanded my lord to give the land for an inheritance by lot to the children of Israel: and my lord was commanded by the LORD to give the inheritance of Zelophehad our brother unto his daughters.

Leviticus 16: 7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

9And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

A lot is God's will. He instructed His people to do so , that's why Peter and the rest of the apostles drew lots to see who God wants to replace Judas.
It was not a mistake , it was not men's choise.
Therefore we see not Jesus correcting them for replacing so Judas with Matthias.
Do not judge like men!

Tj3 · May 13, 2009, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

Joshua 14:2 By lot was their inheritance, as the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses, for the nine tribes, and for the half tribe.

Numbers 36:2 And they said, The LORD commanded my lord to give the land for an inheritance by lot to the children of Israel: and my lord was commanded by the LORD to give the inheritance of Zelophehad our brother unto his daughters.

Leviticus 16: 7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

9And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

A lot is God's will. He instructed His people to do so , that's why Peter and the rest of the apostles drew lots to see who God wants to replace Judas.
It was not a mistake , it was not men's choise.
Therefore we see not Jesus correcting them for replacing so Judas with Matthias.
Do not judge like men!

Just because something was done once or even 2 or three times for specific instances does not mean that every time that you do it, that it is of the Lord. For example:

Isa 20:2-5
2 at the same time the LORD spoke by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, "Go, and remove the sackcloth from your body, and take your sandals off your feet." And he did so, walking naked and barefoot. 3 Then the LORD said, "Just as My servant Isaiah has walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and a wonder against Egypt and Ethiopia, 4 so shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians as prisoners and the Ethiopians as captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
NKJV

Would you think that this is the right thing for every Christian to do?

Now if you can find me where in scripture God instructed the Apostles to choose lots, I'll believe you.

arcura · May 13, 2009, 11:40 PM

adam7gur,
Well done.
It demonstrates that there are times when casting lots are for God to make the choice.
And of course in the case of God's CHOSEN apostles casting lots to select a replacement for Judas it makes sense that God would help make the choice.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

adam7gur · May 14, 2009, 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Just because something was done once or even 2 or three times for specific instances does not mean that everytime that you do it, that it is of the Lord. For example:

Isa 20:2-5
2 at the same time the LORD spoke by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, "Go, and remove the sackcloth from your body, and take your sandals off your feet." And he did so, walking naked and barefoot. 3 Then the LORD said, "Just as My servant Isaiah has walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and a wonder against Egypt and Ethiopia, 4 so shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians as prisoners and the Ethiopians as captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.
NKJV

Would you think that this is the right thing for every Christian to do?

Now if you can find me where in scripture God instructed the Apostles to choose lots, I'll believe you.

Your example is a prophecy for a sign and not the law. I offered scriptures from the law! The law is not something that happenes once or twice , it is the law and it is the way things should be done.The apostles did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit at that time and they did what the law tought them to do.The law from the beginning to the end of it is Jesus Christ,so doing something by law is doing it by Jesus Christ!
Matthias was chosen directly by the law, so he was chosen directly by Jesus Christ!

adam7gur · May 14, 2009, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

It demonstrates that there are times when casting lots are for God to make the choice.
And of course in the case of God's CHOSEN apostles casting lots to select a replacement for Judas it makes sense that God would help make the choice.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Exactly!

homesell · May 14, 2009, 04:15 AM

I guess I must repeat myself. The Bible clearly says that THEY(the apostles) chose 2 men. Then cast lots to see which of the two would be selected. Adam7gur mentioned selecting of two goats one for the offering, one for the scapegoat. First THE PEOPLE selected the two goats, then asked the lot to choose between the two. Goats aren't people. This was a totally different scenario with both selected goats put before the Lord to serve a different purpose.
If I prayed to the Lord and said, "Lord, I'm gonna get drunk. I wrote the seven days of the week on seven pieces of paper and put those papers in a jar. I'm going to pick out one piece of paper. Please let me know which day of the week of the seven that you want me to get drunk."
If I'm able to pull a day of the week out of the jar, does that mean that day is God's will? (Don't get any ideas here you sinners... hehehe)
Praying to God beforehand, being an apostle, has nothing to do with it. The Bible says the APOSTLES chose the two men to put before the Lord.

adam7gur · May 14, 2009, 05:23 AM

Let me see!
You put in the same sack, a man willing to sin and even putting the blame on God for it, with the directly by God chosen apostles! Can you see how misleading this is?
I wish Peter could say something about this and I would very much like to see if you had the courage to say this in his face just as you say this in his absence and in the absence of the rest apostles.But in their defence there is today as in their time, the Holy Spirit!
Yes the people selected the goats according to God's will.Those goats should be perfect goats,healthy in every way,even not two coloured.Yes , people chose but not any kind of goat.So, yes the apostles did choose ,but those they chose were not just two guys,but those two were with Jesus for the whole time while He was here on earth.And there were no others among the rest. Paul at that moment, was Christ's enemy.He persecuted the Church,even agreed on Stephen's murder.
The selection of those two was under the instruction of the law and that makes the whole thing legal.
Those goats Jeff, were selected as a sin offering.Those goats were Christ preincarnated ,if you see what I mean and that makes them definetely not ,just two goats.Yes goats aren't people but those goats were sacrificed for people's sin and that should make us see the importance of that ritual!

homesell · May 14, 2009, 06:04 AM

All I'm saying is that the Bible says the apostles chose the two names and one name was going to come out no matter what. Peter wasn't flawless, Paul had to correct him.
I'm not saying I'm right and anyone that disagrees is wrong. I see two valid possibilities here and I choose to believe Paul was God's choice.

adam7gur · May 14, 2009, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by homesell

I see two valid possibilities here and I choose to believe Paul was God's choice.

This is what amazes me.How can you see two possibilities when the one you claim is totally unsriptural, therefore only human ,while the other one is under God's law?
All you do to support your claim is guessing while scripture is clear that your claim is without proof!
Let me ask you this and I HONESTLY just want to help you if you just let me!

I can see how Paul's ministry could be more glorious than the ministry of Matthias.Now , let's examine the coin from the flip side...
Whose sins were heavier?
I don't see Matthias killing anyone , while Paul, supported the murder of Stephen and also persecuted many members of the Church,and by pesecuting I don't think that Scripture means ,just throwing them out of their homes.Surely it was more and worse than that!
Everything matters!

Tj3 · May 14, 2009, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

Your example is a prophecy for a sign and not the law.

And yours have nothing to do with a general application of using casting of lots as a means of knowing God's will. They are very specific. Otherwise, if lots were a way of knowing God's will perfectly, then we could all just make infallible decisions by casting lots on every decision.

Tj3 · May 14, 2009, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by homesell

All I'm saying is that the Bible says the apostles chose the two names and one name was gonna come out no matter what. Peter wasn't flawless, Paul had to correct him.
I'm not saying I'm right and anyone that disagrees is wrong. I see two valid possibilities here and I choose to believe Paul was God's choice.

Your points are very well taken. Not only is the usage of lots questionable, but by limiting the number of choices, we make it impossible for "God" to choose any option that we did not already agree with. It is kind of like an election in a communist country. You may have two choices, but they are both chosen by the communist party.

We therefore have told God what His options are before the choice is made. And like you said, this is not the same as choosing between two goats.

homesell · May 14, 2009, 06:49 AM

Adam7gur,
Since the shed blood of Christ covers all our sins, does it matter who sinned more? For that matter, Moses was a murderer and David (a man after God's own heart)was an adulterer and a murderer.

Tj3 · May 14, 2009, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by adam7gur

This is what amazes me.How can you see two possibilities when the one you claim is totally unsriptural, therefore only human ,while the other one is under God's law?

First, casting of lots has only be used for very specific and well defined purposes in scripture. To expand it beyond what God say is unscriptural (remember that it says not to go beyond what is written?). Also keep in mind that those who are in Christ are not under the law, so I am not sure what the law has to do with this in any case.

All you do to support your claim is guessing while scripture is clear that your claim is without proof!

You claim is without proof.

- What we do know is that scripture is specific that there are 12 Apostles.
- We know that 12 were directly and personally chosen by Christ - the only exception being Mattias.
- We have nothing in scripture to say that Matthias was chosen by God.
- We do have scripture saying that Paul was chosen by God.

I don't know know how you cram a 13th Apostle into that equation.

Let me ask you this and I HONESTLY just want to help you if you just let me!

I can see how Paul's ministry could be more glorious than the ministry of Matthias.Now , let's examine the coin from the flip side...
Whose sins were heavier?
I don't see Matthias killing anyone , while Paul, supported the murder of Stephen and also persecuted many members of the Church,and by pesecuting I don't think that Scripture means ,just throwing them out of their homes.Surely it was more and worse than that!
Everything matters!

I would suggest that you are no in a position to judge that. You are making your judgment based upon what we do know about Paul, and what we don't know about Mathhias. Further, as Homsesell quite rightly showed, whose sins are heavier does not matter for those that are in Christ.

arcura · May 14, 2009, 09:30 PM

Yes the apostles chose two men to put before the Lord and cast lots to have the Lord select WHICH ONE would be an apostle and the other NOT one.
Your drunk example does not work with that. There was no sure thing about it other than the Lord would make the selection from the lot cast.
Your jar of slips was riiged for you knew bfore have that the selected slip would show up.
The apostles nid NOT know which man would be selected.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

adam7gur · May 14, 2009, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

And yours have nothing to do with a general application of using casting of lots as a means of knowing God's will.

My example is straight from the law.
I am sorry but God's commandments are something more than you describe them to be.
It was God who instructed people to do so.

adam7gur · May 14, 2009, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by homesell

Adam7gur,
since the shed blood of Christ covers all our sins, does it matter who sinned more? For that matter, Moses was a murderer and David (a man after God's own heart)was an adulterer and a murderer.

Exactly my brother!
I just wanted to show you how our judgement has nothing to do with the Lord's.
We as humans are influenced by the phenomenon, but the Lord can reach the very depths of our hearts.