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unbiased_thinker · Jul 9, 2006, 09:34 AM

My question is this.
God knows what will happen in the future.
Jesus knew that Judas will betray him.
Jesus knew that Peter will deny him three times
Jesus knew that people will crucify him.

So, could all these people act in a way different than Jesus had predicted?
If they couldn't, then this means that these people had no free will.
Their actions were predetermined.

Are our actions predetermined and we just think we have free will, but in the end what happens is what God has designed to happen?

RickJ · Jul 9, 2006, 10:25 AM

For me, the subject is far simpler than many make it.

Knowledge of what will happen in the future has nothing to do with determining it.

We do have free will - absolutely.. and God does know all, including the future.

No, I cannot explain how this works no better than I can explain the Trinity. These are mysteries of the Christian faith that we cannot fully understand.

TxGreaseMonkey · Jul 9, 2006, 11:44 AM

The two are not mutually exclusive.

valinors_sorrow · Jul 9, 2006, 12:37 PM

I am somewhat with Rick on this... its like this: while I like to think I know the sun will rise tomorrow, I clearly have absolutely nothing to do with it. But, one could challenge my "knowing" to only be a good calculated guess based on some pretty hefty science and I would agree to that too. But to a very young child I might look as if I did it - made the sun rise. LOL

So the real question is how does God know? God knows because God made all the stuff here, including all the cause and effect too. Why would he make all the stuff, fit it all together so brilliantly and then leave some aspect of it to random chance? Its enough to blow your mind but that means God made all the possibilities for action and the corresponding consequences to those actions. So no matter what we do with our choices for an action, there is already a predictable outcome - the one God built in.

We, on the other hand, are basically built too "little" to see it all, much like the mice in a maze don't necessarily see or understand the scientist in the labcoat standing there with a clipboard - really poor analogy, I know! Sorry! I can't find another except we are like children in comparison to God. And I am not suggesting for one minute that our relationship with our creator is in any way similar to the one in this example either.

And as for the spiritually advanced people like Jesus (and the rest) they saw and understood more than the rest of us. It isn't mystical to see into the future if you are able to see that a + b = c. I believe Jesus knew his friends well and could tell what would come next. He could probably have done that no matter what the choices were that Judas and Peter took. I believe we all possess the ability to do this. I can do this too - more so with my friends but with other people too - having looked at "how the world works" intensely for a long time. I believe everything we need to learn how to do this is right here in front of us. I believe the creator made a logical world for us to learn from it and know.

While almost anyone would agree it's possible to see and understand more, the path to take to get there is quite varied amongst humans. It is something I have been interested in for a very long time. If I had to name my religion, I would have to call it "Reality"! Thanks for a great topic!

Jonegy · Jul 9, 2006, 04:57 PM

Hi Unbiassed...

Simple answer - take the god part out of the equation and you have your freewill.

31pumpkin · Jul 9, 2006, 07:44 PM

God gave us free will because He didn't want us to be like robots. God also has a divine plan for your life and for this world.

There are no accidents or coincidences with God.

Be in the Word of God, pray, seek Him each day, so that you will follow His plan for your life.

We bring unnecessary pain & heartache into our lives when we exercise our God-given free will to ignore God & rebel. But that does not stop God from being in control. When we are in rebellion, we are not on the path that God wants us to be on. That is when we miss the joy, peace, & abundance this life can offer. That is when we are missing the blessings of God in our life.

Things don't "just happen". There is a Divine purpose and reason for each & everything that goes on in our lives.
This should give us confidence that knowing that God has a reason for everything we are experiencing in our lives. But part of His plan gives us incredible freedom to live each day for Him.

talaniman · Jul 10, 2006, 07:02 AM

As usual Val I have to agree with you even your anology of the mouse in the maze. We only can see what our brain lets us see and I even agree with 31pumpkins post, the Creator does have a masterplan.

NeedKarma · Jul 10, 2006, 07:30 AM

One of the problems I see with all this is that if my 2 year old child were to get hit by a car and die I don't see myself getting much comfort from people telling me "it's part of God's great plan".

31pumpkin · Jul 10, 2006, 08:36 AM

Needkarma -

That is one of the reasons for prayer. To pray for God's favor & protection BEFOREHAND. I pray a prayer of protection over my girls, always did.
Try Psalm 91 or improvise.
Then I tell God that I am going to trust in Him & to give His angels especial charge over them. :rolleyes:

Jonegy · Jul 10, 2006, 10:42 AM

After my infant son's funeral I was lucky enough to have my father with me.

When the man-in-black started dishing out his platitudes, good ole Dad suggested we go to the local pub and get out of the way.

Incidentally the priest was RC - and Irish - and when we arrived back home he had managed to empty a bottle of whisky that had only been opened that morning!! :D

valinors_sorrow · Jul 10, 2006, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

One of the problems I see with all this is that if my 2 year old child were to get hit by a car and die I don't see myself getting much comfort from people telling me "it's part of God's great plan".

I agree... and I don't for a moment believe that everything here is what God wants. In fact, it is often far from it --from what I can tell. I am always a little skeptical of those who say that they know the whole plan. But its plain enough that God allows for any of us to do bad things - one only need look to prisons to see to what extent we are all allowed. BUT I believe there are planned consequences for all things, good and bad, down to the tiniest of details. Its just we don't see the whole deal in this lifetime, in this form we are currently in. This is one of those beliefs I have that is unshakable. There is a day of reckoning. It was what I saw when I thought I was dying while being choked by the stranger as a kid (see my Introduction for further explanation). Even though I was atheist at the time. It is why I came away from that experience with a deep understanding that it's important to pay attention to what I am doing having once and for always come to know the enormity of enlightened regret for even the smallest of harms done.

I am by no means perfect either so it's a daily practice for me. I wish other people were so careful.

Cassie · Jul 10, 2006, 01:19 PM

I believe God gave us a path to follow but by giving us free will we can go off that path through life. When we take a different path we do not have the peace and tranquility we experience when we are on God's path. Very spiritual people just seem to know things. I read about a great spiritual leader that knew when he was going to die. He was not ill, he just knew his time was coming very soon, he was through with his work here.
Just because God know's what the future holds, does not been mean we have no free will. Prayer can change things, but God still knows.
When we have hills and mountains to climb in our lives, they can still be blessings. They prepare us for bigger and better things to come. We are able to understand other peoples misfortunes and able to help and guide when we can. If we lived charmed lives we would have no idea how another one felt that had not lived in such a way. The more one grows and understands life, the closer one comes to God.

talaniman · Jul 10, 2006, 03:33 PM

I won't pretend to know what the Creators plan is or what my role in it will be, or even have a clue as to what it is I should be doing,but I believe in HIS guidance and do the best I can with my limited ability and hope I am on the right path.

Starman · Jul 12, 2006, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by unbiased_thinker

My question is this.
God knows what will happen in the future.
Jesus knew that Judas will betray him.
Jesus knew that Peter will deny him three times
Jesus knew that people will crucify him.

So, could all these people act in a way different than Jesus had predicted?
if they couldn't, then this means that these people had no free will.
Their actions were predetermined.

Are our actions predetermined and we just think we have free will, but in the end what happens is what God has designed to happen?

The predictor is the cause of the prediction.
I predicted rain for today.
I caused the rain.

Prediction of some events indicates predictability of all events.
I predicted some events.
All events are predictable.

All events are predictable.
The future consists of events.
The future is predictable.

Prediction of human behavior indicates humans lack freedom of choice.
Jesus predicted human behavior.
Humans lack freedom of choice.

All the premesis are untrue and the conclusions are valid but false.