[Akoue]

Early Christians regarded Tradition as coming from God no less than did Scripture itself. And yet, in the long march of time from those early centuries, many have come to regard Tradition as a foe, as something opposed to Scripture. There is a reasoned case to be made for both views. My question is, which view is correct, and why? The question has two parts, and I am interested to hear answers to either or both.
1. Is revealed truth limited to Scripture?
2. What role, if any, does Tradition have in allowing us to understand Scripture?

Please: Kindly support any response you care to share with reasoned support. In other words, please do not simply post dizzying lists of Scriptural passages. For any Scripture you do offer, please provide some explanation of what you take it to be saying and why you take it to say that.

Thank you in advance.

[N0help4u]

Some traditions are good and some are not
You have to look at the context and the history
Where did it come from
Does it line up with scripture
Is it man's tradition because they believe it will please God

[JoeT777]

Early Christians regarded Tradition as coming from God no less than did Scripture itself. And yet, in the long march of time from those early centuries, many have come to regard Tradition as a foe, as something opposed to Scripture. There is a reasoned case to be made for both views. My question is, which view is correct, and why? The question has two parts, and I am interested to hear answers to either or both.
1. Is revealed truth limited to Scripture?
2. What role, if any, does Tradition have in allowing us to understand Scripture?

Please: Kindly support any response you care to share with reasoned support. In other words, please do not simply post dizzying lists of Scriptural passages. For any Scripture you do offer, please provide some explanation of what you take it to be saying and why you take it to say that.

Thank you in advance.

Can you define what you mean by "Tradition" for me. Is this my tradition of Christmas turkey? Or, is it something different?

JoeT

[Akoue]

Perhaps I could have been clearer. We use the word "tradition" in lots of different ways, of course. We have family traditions, cultural traditions, I have my own personal "traditions". We I ask about tradition--hereafter Tradition--I mean to ask about a source of revelation. (Presumably my family's traditions aren't a source of revelation for anybody, not even for me.)

I mean Tradition as a body of teaching handed down from one generation to the next. Early Christians called it the "deposit of faith": A body of teaching--to repeat what I just said--that contains truths in matter of faith.

Does this help at all?

(I'm trying to give a sort of neutral presentation of the idea of Tradition.)

[Wondergirl]

Like NO said, first look at a tradition's context and history --

In a Zen temple, every evening during meditation the temple's cat would screech at the top of its voice, preventing the monks from concentrating. Eventually the Master had to order the cat to be tied and gagged during meditation sessions, and in this way the problem was solved.

Years passed and both the master and the cat died, and a new master was appointed. Then a new cat was found and every evening before the meditation, it was tied and gagged.

Several years later, scholars at the temple wrote treatises about the significance in Buddhist practice of tying up cats.

[N0help4u]

I heard a story about tradition. The woman always cut her meat in half and baked each half in the oven on different racks.
Her husband one time asked why she did it that way. She said I don't know I will have to ask my mother why she did it that way.
She asked her mom. Her mom replied because the oven was too narrow to put a big roasting pan in it so she had to use two smaller ones.

[Wondergirl]

I heard a story about tradition. The woman always cut her meat in half and baked each half in the oven on different racks.
Her husband one time asked why she did it that way. She said I dunno I will have to ask my mother why she did it that way.
She asked her mom. Her mom replied because the oven was too narrow to put a big roasting pan in it so she had to use two smaller ones.

I've aways folded towels and washcloths exactly as my mother taught me many years ago. I once asked her why those kinds of folds. She replied, "Because then they will fit in the drawer."

Too often that's what happens with church tradition--"we've always done it that way," but no one knows why and there's no mom to ask why.

[Akoue]

Wondergirl, N0help4u,

Thanks. Okay, so I think this helps. So what I want to get at is a notion of Tradition as something the goes beyond the examples you've offered. (Though I would like to here more about the Zen one sometime.--No offense, N0help4u, too soon after Thanksgiving for me to even think about turkey yet).

So, back to my original question: What are your views about Tradition in *that* sense?

[arcura]

I think what you are asking about is what the early Church Fathers wrote and taught that was not included in the bible and is referred to as Christian early tradition.
We get that tradition information from still existing documentation.
That does not include later activities such as the CHRISTmas Tree or turkey for CHRISTmas dinner.
Am I right?
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Please name some specific early church traditions that are still kept and help Christians in some way (and how).

[JoeT777]

Too often that's what happens with church tradition--"we've always done it that way," but no one knows why and there's no mom to ask why.

But, what if the Tradition deals with Scripture? It’s been determined that this particular scripture is intended to be understood a certain way. Do we abandon that meaning just because you don’t know how to fold towels?

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

But, what if the Tradition deals with Scripture? It’s been determined that this particular scripture is intended to be understood a certain way. Do we abandon that meaning just because you don’t know how to fold towels?

JoeT

You missed my point. Please read my subsequent posts.

[Akoue]

Fred,

Thanks for helping us get back on track. Yes, I'm asking about something much older than turkey dinners.

Now, on one way of looking at it, the Bible is part of Tradition because it too is something that has been handed down as part of a deposit of faith. On this view, Scripture and Tradition aren't in tension with one another because Scripture is part of Tradition.

Another view holds that although the Bible has been handed down from generation to generation--in the sense that someone had to hand you and me the physical book--there is nothing beyond Scripture that can't be regarded as revelation.

(There are more than just these two views, of course, and I am eager to hear from those who hold a view other than those I have just described.)

[JoeT777]

Please name some specific early church traditions that are still kept and help Christians in some way (and how).

Wow, that's hard. There are so many. I'll get back in a few minutes with a couple of them.

[N0help4u]

But, what if the Tradition deals with Scripture? It’s been determined that this particular scripture is intended to be understood a certain way. Do we abandon that meaning just because you don’t know how to fold towels?

JoeT

No the point is the scripture tells you how to and about 'folding the towels' so that is her point if it is a tradition that deals with scripture it IS for a purpose.

[arcura]

To help clear this up here is some early Christian tradition that was posted earlier on a different thread.
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Originally Posted by De Maria

Believe in Sola Scriptura? No.

Papias

Whenever anyone came my way, who had been a follower of my seniors, I would ask for the accounts of our seniors: What did Andrew or Peter say? Or Phillip or Thomas or James or John or Matthew, or any of the Lord's disciples? I also asked: What did Aristion and John the Presbyter, disciples of the Lord say. For, as I see it, it is not so much from books as from the living and permanent voice that I must draw profit (The Sayings of the Lord [between A.D. 115 and 140] as recorded by Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 3:39 [A.D. 325]).

Irenaeus

For even creation reveals Him who formed it, and the very work made suggests Him who made it, and the world manifests Him who ordered it. The Universal [Catholic] Church, moreover, through the whole world, has received this tradition from the Apostles (Against Heresies 2:9 [A.D. 189]).

True knowledge is the doctrine of the Apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved, without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither addition nor curtailment [in truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the Word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy… (ibid. 4:33 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

For wherever both the true Christian rule and faith shall be shown to be, there will be the true Scriptures, and the true expositions, of all the true Christian traditions (The Prescription of Heretics 19 [A.D. 200]).

Origen

Seeing there are many who think they hold the opinions of Christ, and yet some of these think differently from their predecessors, yet as the teaching of the Church, transmitted in orderly succession from the Apostles, and remaining in the churches to the present day, is still preserved, that alone is to be accepted as truth which differs in no respect from ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition (On First Principles Bk. 1 Preface 2 [circa A.D. 225]).

Believe in the Pope? Yes.

Clement of Rome

Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret.. . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

Ignatius of Antioch

You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Clement of Alexandria

[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian

[T]he Lord said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven" [Matt. 16:18-19].. . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).

Letter of Clement to James

Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).

Cyprian

With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).

The Lord says to Peter: "I say to you," he says, "that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church".. . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e. apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).

Believe in Faith alone? No.

Clement of Rome

Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words.. . Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith? So we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men. (Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4 [A.D. 110]).

Theophilus of Antioch

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings, and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. He who gave the mouth for speech and formed the ears for hearing and made eyes for seeing will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things, which neither has eye seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries and fornications and homosexuality and avarice and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, and in the end such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycas 1:14 [ca. A.D. 181]).

Clement of Alexandria

When we hear, 'Your faith has saved you,' we do not understand the Lord to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed. To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that he spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly and who had lacked only faith in the Lord (Stromateis or Miscellanies 6:14:108:4 [post A.D. 202]).

Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D. 226-232]).

Cyprian

You, then, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself from Christ gold purified in fire, for with your filth, as if burned away in the fire; you can be like pure gold, if you are cleansed by almsgiving and by works of justice. Buy yourself a white garment so that, although you had been naked like Adam and were formerly frightful and deformed, you may be clothed in the white garment of Christ. You who are a matron rich and wealthy, anoint not your eyes with the antimony of the devil, but with the salve of Christ, so that you may at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living (Works and Almsgiving 14 [A.D. 252]).

Believe in prayer to Saints? Yes.

Origen

But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (On Prayer II [A.D. 233]).

Pectorius

Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ] (Epitaph [A.D. 250]).

Cyprian

Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 252]).

Anonymous

Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins (funerary inscription near St. Sabina's in Rome [A.D. 300]).

Anonymous

Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Akoue]

Wondergirl,

Tradition isn't in the first instance composed of practices. At least, not in the sense of Tradition I'm asking about. (This is good, you're helping me to be more precise.) It's rather a body of teachings. Nowhere in the Bible do we find the words "God is a Trinity", for example, and yet many Christians believe that God is a Trinity. Here we have a doctrine, a teaching which is regarded by many to be part of revelation, and yet is not explicitly stated in Scripture. This isn't to say that it is *opposed* in any way to Scripture; just that it's not to be found there in as many words.

I think this also speaks to Joe's point. For many Christians, Tradition is something which guides their understanding of Scripture. So, for instance, those Christians who believe that God is a Trinity certainly don't take themselves to believe something which is in tension with Scripture; the Tradition, the teaching shows them how to interpret various Scriptural passages in order to see that God is in fact a Trinity.

I hope this helps. Tell me if it doesn't and I'll try again.

[Wondergirl]

Like the tied-up and gagged cat in my story earlier, too often the meaning behind any Tradition (note the capital T, i.e. based on Scripture) has gotten lost in history and is merely a tradition (note the lower-case t). That is, the tradition was established but was never deserving of the capital T (high regard) it was gained over the years.

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl,

Tradition isn't in the first instance composed of practices. At least, not in the sense of Tradition I'm asking about. (This is good, you're helping me to be more precise.) It's rather a body of teachings. Nowhere in the Bible do we find the words "God is a Trinity", for example, and yet many Christians believe that God is a Trinity. Here we have a doctrine, a teaching which is regarded by many to be part of revelation, and yet is not explicitly stated in Scripture. This isn't to say that it is *opposed* in any way to Scripture; just that it's not to be found there in as many words.

I think this also speaks to Joe's point. For many Christians, Tradition is something which guides their understanding of Scripture. So, for instance, those Christians who believe that God is a Trinity certainly don't take themselves to believe something which is in tension with Scripture; the Tradition, the teaching shows them how to interpret various Scriptural passages in order to see that God is in fact a Trinity.

I hope this helps. Tell me if it doesn't and I'll try again.

So you are calling Tradition the teachings the Church fathers have come up with after studying the Scriptures.

[Akoue]

So you are calling Tradition the teachings the Church fathers have come up with after studying the Scriptures.

Not exactly. For those who take this view--and, as I say, I hope we'll hear from and discuss many others--Tradition isn't something necessarily *derived from* Scripture. (Though, they would say, it must not conflict with Scripture.) Tradition, they hold, has been around since before Scripture. The books of the New Testament were written beginning in the middle of the first century. This is when Paul wrote the first of his epistles. The Gospels were written a little bit later. Tradition, on the other hand, has been around since Jesus himself walked and talked and taught his Apostles. They later wrote down what he taught them. But they also taught students of their own, and those students in turn had students, and so on. The NT is relatively short, and not all that Jesus taught is included in its pages. This, at least, is the view.