[Tj3]

What context is going to change the meaning of "it"? You're the one who cited the passages. Now that you can't back up your reading of them you're making vague allusions to context.

Here we go again. I already quoted the context, Akoue, take the time to read what I posted. Or at least read that section of scripture.

People hide behind talk of context all the time when they have nothing concrete to bring forward in defense of indefensible claims. You misread the passages. That's all there is to it.

I am not surprised that people who want to read their own theological system into a passage wish to reject the context, and try to ridicule those who take the time to read what it says in context.

[De Maria]

For some, they need to asked because perhaps they have never received Jesus as Saviour. For others it is acknowledging that it is a two way street.

Luke 11:4
4 And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one."
NKJV

Sin is an on-going problem while we are here on earth, and while the sin of those of us who are saved has been paid for, from our perspective, we see it on a time-line, where we sin and are forgiven.

You must be pulling that from some other source. I don't see anything about seeing it on a time-line in Scripture.

But by the same token, why would you think that we ask God not to lead us into temptation when God would never do that?

You added those lines. I only focused on "forgive us our sins".

What? Because Jesus is the author of all who are saved, we have to work? That is completely contradictory. If He is the author, He did it, not us. The author of the book writes the book, not the readers.

But in order to find out what the author said, the reader must read the book.

Read more carefully. Did I say that everyone was condemned to hell? No.

Then what does this mean?

Since Romans 3:23 is clear that all have sinned, then those who are not saved are facing an eternity in hell.

Read carefully, who did I say was condemned to hell?

Why did you say they were condemned to hell?

[arcura]

Akoue,
I agree wholeheartedly.
Fred

[Tj3]

You must be pulling that from some other source. I don't see anything about seeing it on a time-line in Scripture.

I got it from something called the Bible.

You added those lines. I only focused on "forgive us our sins".

They have been in scripture all along. In my Bible anyway. Are they not in yours?


But in order to find out what the author said, the reader must read the book.

Then what does this mean?

It means:

Since Romans 3:23 is clear that all have sinned, then those who are not saved are facing an eternity in hell.

Why did you say they were condemned to hell?

Well, what do you think that it means to not be saved? What do you think that those who are saved, are saved from?

[samdarwen]

And my friend.. Have you been thinking about what it means to receive the CHrist as your Saviour? In my understanding that to receive Him, you will need to receive his word and do by it.
Forgiveness is for the ones that made mistakes, but because they are man kind, they made a mistake, and because they received Jesus Christ, and by doing the work by the way is the receiving part, those are the ones that their sin is forgiven, and I'm just telling you what I understand.. And I hope I'm wrong, for the sake of anyone believe like yourself.
Read the Bible.. Maybe I would start with John if I want to know more.

[Akoue]

Here we go again. I already quoted the context, Akoue, take the time to read what I posted. Or at least read that section of scripture.

I did. Here's what I wrote (post #32, a mere page ago):

While I agree that the context is salvation, notice that the word "salvation" does not occur even once in this passage. "It" in the clause under discussion clearly refers to "grace": Grace is not a product of works but is a gift of God. "By grace you have been saved", "His grace and kindness", "by grace you have been saved", "it <grace> is the gift of God, not of works".

Grace is God's unmerited favor. It cannot be won by doing good works. Works alone are not salvific. The word "it" clearly does not refer to salvation; that wouldn't even make grammatical sense; the word "salvation" is not used in this passage, even though it is talking about salvation. It is talking about the role of grace in salvation, and it is telling us that grace is a wholly gratuitous gift of God.

But, as you know, grace and salvation aren't the same thing. Salvation requires faith and works, together, not one without the other. Faith and works are each necessary conditions for salvation, but neither of them (in the absence of the other) is a sufficient condition for salvation.

I am not surprised that people who want to read their own theological system into a passage wish to reject the context, and try to ridicule those who take the time to read what it says in context.

You're the one who cited those passages, and you're the one who's distorted their meaning. I'm just pointing you back to the text. If there is some context that can change the meaning of "it", by all means, share it with us. If not, it seems you are the one reading his own theological system into the passage. I'm a great believer in the importance of context. I've brought it up many times myself. But vague allusions to context aren't going to cut it. As I say, I can see no contextual factors which will turn the verse from 1Jn. Into a claim about works or the passage from Ephesians into a denial that works figure in salvation. What you've said isn't Scriptural just because you quote Scripture. You have to understand Scripture and quote relevant passages. The ones you've appealed to so far don't go anywhere near making the claims you impute to them.

[Tj3]

Well, if we are going to just c/p postings, here is what I said just a short ways back!

--------------------------------------------

The verse you quoted says:

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

It says that if we confess our sins we are forgiven. It doesn't say "when we are saved", it says "if we confess". Notice that it doesn't say "all sin", it says "our sins". Our sins are forgiven. Then it says "and", so in addition to our sins being forgiven something else happens: we are cleansed of "all unrighteousness".

Are you saying that you believe that an unsaved person can be cleansed of all unrighteousness? Could you please show us from scripture where that is taught?

It still doesn't say anything about works. And I think it's really odd that you would say that our works, even the righteous ones, "are removed". The verse doesn't say that at all. Again, no mention of works at all.

Where there is no righteousness, there is no sin by which we can be judged. It appears that you have a different definition of salvation than we find in scripture. Perhaps you will share you definition of what salvation means with us.

Then you claim that Ephesians does not say that works are not part of salvation. An interesting theory especially since this passage specifically and explicity does mention that salvation has nothing to do with works.

This also doesn't show that works are no part of salvation.

There is a semicolon, and the word after the semicolon is "it".

Really, and what exactly do you think that this "it" refers to immediately following a phrase speaking about salvation?

To what does "it" refer? "It" doesn't refer to salvation, because the noun "salvation" doesn't occur. The verb "have been saved" occurs, but "it" has to refer to a noun. So that means it refers either to "grace" or "faith". Take your pick: either "it" refers back to "grace" (grace is a gift of God) or it refers back to "faith" (faith is a gift of God). I'm fine with either one.

This argument ignores the entire context, which has one topic - salvation:

Eph 2:1-10
2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Yet you would have me believe that in the last half of one verse, the topic changed.

Nice try, but I think that even if you showed this to a child, the reference is so clear that it would not be missed.

[arcura]

Akoue.
I agree very much with this you said to Tj3, "You have to understand Scripture and quote relevant passages. The ones you've appealed to so far don't go anywhere near making the claims you impute to them."
Tj3 likes to push his own personal theology and has done so many times.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[N0help4u]

I think God is showing you some things to draw you to him.
DO you think God would reveal himself to you if he was only going to cut you off? The Bible says to search diligently and he will honor it,
I have messed up big time in the past 20 years since I have come to Christ but the more I mess up the more I realize how merciful and forgiving God is and the closer he brings me to him.
Do not give up. The Bible says the ones who fight the good fight (keep the faith) will be saved. So realize God is doing a work in you and everything you go through is a lesson to weed out the old you and nurture the spiritual person God wants you to be.

[Tj3]

Akoue.
I agree very much with this you said to Tj3, "You have to understand Scripture and quote relevant passages.

Exactly what I was asking Akoue to look at when he started his rant against reading the context.

[arcura]

N0help4u,
You said, "So realize God is doing a work in you and everything you go through is a lesson to weed out the old you and nurture the spiritual person God wants you to be."
Yup. I surely do agree with that.
Well said.
Fred

[arcura]

Tj3,
I still agree with Akoue on this an not you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[arcura]

N0help4u,
I again agree with you.
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I still agree with Akoue on this an not you.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

That is fine. I will stick with the context whether you agree or not.

[Akoue]

Exactly what I was asking Akoue to look at when he started his rant against reading the context.

Well, Akoue has commented on all the context you have chosen to share. Notice that v.8 opens with the word "For". This suggests a conclusion drawn from what preceded. And that conclusion is, in vv.8 and 9, that salvation requires grace and that grace is an unmerited gift of God. It is not a reward or payment given in return for work done ("it is not a gift of works") but is given gratuitously by God. While it's true that the context is a discussion of salvation, it's also true that the context includes a discussion of the role of grace in salvation. Since grammatically the word "it" in v.8 cannot stand in for a verb ("have been saved"), it is quite evident that it refers back to the word "grace". This isn't some tricky theological maneuver; this is just grammar. But it also accords with the broader passage as you've quoted it (and as I have just explained--i.e. the role of grace in salvation, grace is an unmerited gift of God and not our just desserts for work done).

I am now thoroughly bored from repeating myself, so this will be my last post to the present thread. That means that you, Tom, get to have the last word. I know that's important to you.

[Tj3]

Well, Akoue has commented on all the context you have chosen to share.

And then you denied it and wanted nothing to do the context.

Notice that v.8 opens with the word "For".

By the time you got to that word, you have missed what the subject is that Paul is speaking about.

Right from the start, Paul makes his subject clear:

Eph 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself,
NKJV

And goes on:

Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

Bringing us to chapter 2 (I trust you know chapter divisions were not in the original letter).Note that the theme of salvation is still going:

Eph 2:1-8
2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

But suddenly you want us to think that the subject changed at this word "For", and that we should ignore the full context of the sentence:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

So we have the context at the start, but in case there are those who miss that, Paul often summarizes what he is speaking about with a conclusion, and the conclusion is found after the word "therefore":

Eph 2:11-13
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
NKJV





This suggests a conclusion drawn from what preceded. And that conclusion is, in vv.8 and 9, that salvation requires grace and that grace is an unmerited gift of God. It is not a reward or payment given in return for work done ("it is not a gift of works") but is given gratuitously by God. While it's true that the context is a discussion of salvation, it's also true that the context includes a discussion of the role of grace in salvation. Since grammatically the word "it" in v.8 cannot stand in for a verb ("have been saved"), it is quite evident that it refers back to the word "grace". This isn't some tricky theological maneuver; this is just grammar. But it also accords with the broader passage as you've quoted it (and as I have just explained--i.e. the role of grace in salvation, grace is an unmerited gift of God and not our just desserts for work done).

I am now thoroughly bored from repeating myself, so this will be my last post to the present thread. That means that you, Tom, get to have the last word. I know that's important to you.[/QUOTE]

[Akoue]

Okay, this is just too delicious to pass up. So you honestly mean to claim that the "it" in Eph.2.8 refers all the way back to the word "salvation" in Eph.1.13? I have already stated REPEATEDLY that the context is salvation. The problem for your reading is that in the verses under consideration, Paul is talking about the role of GRACE in salvation. You can't just skim along the surface and grab on to what tickles your fancy. The word "it" isn't referring to the "context". It's a pronoun, and it is clearly standing in for "grace". Man, I've seen you pull some stunts before, but this one is rich. I mean, if your grammatical rules are in place, why not say that "it" refers to "redemption" or "glory"? They are nouns too, and they show up. Underlines and boldface don't redirect the reference of pronouns. Not in any language.

And then you denied it and wanted nothing to do the context.



By the time you got to that word, you have missed what the subject is that Paul is speaking about.

Right from the start, Paul makes his subject clear:

Eph 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself,
NKJV

And goes on:

Eph 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

Bringing us to chapter 2 (I trust you know chapter divisions were not in the original letter).Note that the theme of salvation is still going:

Eph 2:1-8
2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

But suddenly you want us to think that the subject changed at this word "For", and that we should ignore the full context of the sentence:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

So we have the context at the start, but in case there are those who miss that, Paul often summarizes what he is speaking about with a conclusion, and the conclusion is found after the word "therefore":

Eph 2:11-13
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
NKJV





This suggests a conclusion drawn from what preceded. And that conclusion is, in vv.8 and 9, that salvation requires grace and that grace is an unmerited gift of God. It is not a reward or payment given in return for work done ("it is not a gift of works") but is given gratuitously by God. While it's true that the context is a discussion of salvation, it's also true that the context includes a discussion of the role of grace in salvation. Since grammatically the word "it" in v.8 cannot stand in for a verb ("have been saved"), it is quite evident that it refers back to the word "grace". This isn't some tricky theological maneuver; this is just grammar. But it also accords with the broader passage as you've quoted it (and as I have just explained--i.e., the role of grace in salvation, grace is an unmerited gift of God and not our just desserts for work done).

I am now thoroughly bored from repeating myself, so this will be my last post to the present thread. That means that you, Tom, get to have the last word. I know that's important to you.

[/QUOTE]

[Tj3]

Okay, this is just too delicious to pass up. So you honestly mean to claim that the "it" in Eph.2.8 refers all the way back to the word "salvation" in Eph.1.13?!

Akoue - do you ever actually read my posts or just scan them to see what you can take out of context to attack. No, I did not say that all.

You might want to go back and read what I said carefully.

[Akoue]

Akoue - do you ever actually read my posts or just scan them to see what you can take out of context to attack. No, I did not say that all.

You might want to go back and read what I said carefully.

So then you agree that "it" refers to grace and the claim made by Eph.2.8-9 isn't that works don't figure in salvation but that grace is a gift of God and not a gift of works.

I'm glad we can lay this to rest, since you had been claiming that it was referring to salvation and that the verses were saying that works do not figure in salvation. Am I right that you have abandoned that indefensible reading of the text?

[Tj3]

So then you agree that "it" refers to grace

I see that you still have not read what I posted, or presumably you would not be mis-representing what I said (assuming that you are a man of integrity).