[Akoue]

Scripture says that those who have received Christ as Saviour are not judged by works, but rather His righteousness is imputed to us:

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

If it does say that it isn't saying it in what you've just quoted. What this says is that when we confess our sins we are forgiven and cleansed of their impurity. It doesn't say anything about whether we are judged by works.

[Tj3]

If it does say that it isn't saying it in what you've just quoted. What this says is that when we confess our sins we are forgiven and cleansed of their impurity. It doesn't say anything about whether or not we are judged by works.

The fact that ALL sin has been removed should have been, I would have expected, obvious to all that ALL unrighteousness, including works are removed when we are saved. But perhaps some missed that point.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

[Akoue]

The fact that ALL sin has been removed should have been, I would have expected, obvious to all that ALL unrighteousness, including works are removed when we are saved. But perhaps some missed that point.

The verse you quoted says:

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

It says that if we confess our sins we are forgiven. It doesn't say "when we are saved", it says "if we confess". Notice that it doesn't say "all sin", it says "our sins". Our sins are forgiven. Then it says "and", so in addition to our sins being forgiven something else happens: we are cleansed of "all unrighteousness".

It still doesn't say anything about works. And I think it's really odd that you would say that our works, even the righteous ones, "are removed". The verse doesn't say that at all. Again, no mention of works at all.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

This also doesn't show that works are no part of salvation. There is a semicolon, and the word after the semicolon is "it". To what does "it" refer? "It" doesn't refer to salvation, because the noun "salvation" doesn't occur. The verb "have been saved" occurs, but "it" has to refer to a noun. So that means it refers either to "grace" or "faith". Take your pick: either "it" refers back to "grace" (grace is a gift of God) or it refers back to "faith" (faith is a gift of God). I'm fine with either one.

Close reading of the grammar of Scripture is crucial if one is to understand what it is saying. Otherwise, one gets distortion.

[Tj3]

The verse you quoted says:

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

It says that if we confess our sins we are forgiven. It doesn't say "when we are saved", it says "if we confess". Notice that it doesn't say "all sin", it says "our sins". Our sins are forgiven. Then it says "and", so in addition to our sins being forgiven something else happens: we are cleansed of "all unrighteousness".

Are you saying that you believe that an unsaved person can be cleansed of all unrighteousness? Could you please show us from scripture where that is taught?

It still doesn't say anything about works. And I think it's really odd that you would say that our works, even the righteous ones, "are removed". The verse doesn't say that at all. Again, no mention of works at all.

Where there is no righteousness, there is no sin by which we can be judged. It appears that you have a different definition of salvation than we find in scripture. Perhaps you will share you definition of what salvation means with us.

Then you claim that Ephesians does not say that works are not part of salvation. An interesting theory especially since this passage specifically and explicity does mention that salvation has nothing to do with works.

This also doesn't show that works are no part of salvation.

There is a semicolon, and the word after the semicolon is "it".

Really, and what exactly do you think that this "it" refers to immediately following a phrase speaking about salvation?

To what does "it" refer? "It" doesn't refer to salvation, because the noun "salvation" doesn't occur. The verb "have been saved" occurs, but "it" has to refer to a noun. So that means it refers either to "grace" or "faith". Take your pick: either "it" refers back to "grace" (grace is a gift of God) or it refers back to "faith" (faith is a gift of God). I'm fine with either one.

This argument ignores the entire context, which has one topic - salvation:

Eph 2:1-10
2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Yet you would have me believe that in the last half of one verse, the topic changed.

Nice try, but I think that even if you showed this to a child, the reference is so clear that it would not be missed.

[arcura]

Akoue,
Yes it does.
Fred

[samdarwen]

I would say my friend that if you counting on not to be Judge because you think you are called Christine, Then I would feel sorry for you..
To be one of the Christ's people, you need to believe and do what he order you to do, and not to just count on his death on the Cross for you...
To be a Christian, you have to live like one.. And the ones that are Christens, are the ones that do the rightness not the wrong doings counting of the forgiveness later on..
You have to be Christian by working and doing as one,, and if you are, then you won't be making wrong, and you won't have what to fear on the Judgment day..
I hope you will have an open mind, and understand the different between been called Christine and being a real one.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but I think some one need to explain it to you.
Peace
Sam

[bobbalina]

God loves you no matter what your sin is. He will forgive you, but you have to choose to change. He will always love you

[samdarwen]

I would not agree with you more about one thing... Some of us missing the point here..
To be forgiven is something we have to work on.. We can't be bad people and expect forgiveness, No my friend.. We have to choose the right path first.. To accept Jesus Christ, we first have to accept his way.. we can't just take the short way and count on forgiveness..
Then all killers and bad people will go to heaven my friend... We have to accept Jesus first for us to be accepted and forgiven, and when we do.. Then we can't walk in the wrong path knowing and believe we are saved... You are Catholic.. And I value that and I like it.. But my friend, Can we just think for a moment? Think of what it means to be forgiven..
Maybe then, you will see my point, and I think and believe it's the right point, with all respect to whatever that you believe.
Peace
Sam

[classyT]

Really? Golly gee wiz, how's about that thief on the cross? He didn't have to to WORK out his "forgiveness". To forgive someone you must "work" on that but God forgives us.. just as we are when we turn to him.

Now please, having said THAT I don't believe we have a license to sin... the Lord will not allow it. There IS a sin unto death... you want to keep it up and the Lord may just take you home.

[samdarwen]

Thank you for your sarcasm.. I will just ask you to read the Bible and see if we both can understand the same thing... If I was you, I would've start I John.. try to read and tell me what do you understand from John 13,15, maybe you want to read what he told Judas..
In 13,14/ 21 and 23.. If what I saw was true.. I believe that to have God's word and live by it means to be Christine, other wise, we just fake it, and wish to continue on our wrong and never to be the ones that he meant..
I ask God for his forgiveness, for myself and you all..
Non of us has a license to send to hill or heaven.. We all sinners, and we all need forgiveness
, But forgiveness don't come because you calling yourself Christine, nor because you believe he died on the Cross for your sin.. No my friend.. It's the first stipe to use that scruffy, the first stipe to claim it even, IS to do what he Commanded you to do.. which is loving him by doing what he want you to do...
I feel sorry for the way most people believe if they do believe that.. I ask you all to read the Bible away from what some one told you, but the way it is.
Peace
Sam

[Tj3]

I would say my friend that if you counting on not to be Judge because you think you are called Christine,, Then I would feel sorry for you..
To be one of the Christ's people, you need to believe and do what he order you to do, and not to just count on his death on the Cross for you...

Christians will be judged - according to scripture we will be judged to determine what crowns we receive as reards for our works. Christians have been forgiven their sins, therefore our works are not a determining factor as to whether we are saved. Scripture is very clear that good works follow salvation, not the other way around.

Those who have not received Christ as Saviour are under the law, and are judged by their works for salvation. Since Romans 3:23 is clear that all have sinned, then those who are not saved are facing an eternity in hell. Read Galatians 3.

[Akoue]

Are you saying that you believe that an unsaved person can be cleansed of all unrighteousness? Could you please show us from scripture where that is taught?

I am making no broader theological claim. I am simply pointing out what the verse says, and what it doesn't. It doesn't say anything one way or another about works.

Then you claim that Ephesians does not say that works are not part of salvation. An interesting theory especially since this passage specifically and explicity does mention that salvation has nothing to do with works.

I am saying that the passage from Ephesians that you quote does not say that works are not a part of salvation.

No it doesn't say that. See below.

Really, and what exactly do you think that this "it" refers to immediately following a phrase speaking about salvation?

This argument ignores the entire context, which has one topic - salvation:

Eph 2:1-10
2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

While I agree that the context is salvation, notice that the word "salvation" does not occur even once in this passage. "It" in the clause under discussion clearly refers to "grace": Grace is not a product of works but is a gift of God. "By grace you have been saved", "His grace and kindness", "by grace you have been saved", "it <grace> is the gift of God, not of works".

Grace is God's unmerited favor. It cannot be won by doing good works. Works alone are not salvific. The word "it" clearly does not refer to salvation; that wouldn't even make grammatical sense; the word "salvation" is not used in this passage, even though it is talking about salvation. It is talking about the role of grace in salvation, and it is telling us that grace is a wholly gratuitous gift of God.

But, as you know, grace and salvation aren't the same thing. Salvation requires faith and works, together, not one without the other. Faith and works are each necessary conditions for salvation, but neither of them (in the absence of the other) is a sufficient condition for salvation.

Nice try, but I think that even if you showed this to a child, the reference is so clear that it would not be missed.

I agree. I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble with simple grammar.

[classyT]

Thank you for your sarcasm.. I will just ask you to read the Bible and see if we both can understand the same thing...If I was you,, I would've start I John.. try to read and tell me what do you understand from John 13,15,, maybe you want to read what he told Judas..
in 13,14/ 21 and 23.. If what I saw was true.. I believe that to have God's word and live by it means to be Christine, other wise, we just fake it, and wish to continue on our wrong and never to be the ones that he meant..
I ask God for his forgiveness, for myself and you all..
Non of us has a license to send to hill or heaven.. We all sinners, and we all need forgiveness
, But forgiveness don't come because you calling yourself Christine, nor because you believe he died on the Cross for your sin.. No my friend.. It's the first stipe to use that scruffy,, the first stipe to claim it even,, IS to do what he Commanded you to do.. which is loving him by doing what he want you to do...
I feel sorry for the way most people believe if they do believe that.. I ask you all to read the Bible away from what some one told you, but the way it is.
Peace
Sam

Sam,

don't take my saracsm personal.. it is part of my charm and I honestly didn't mean it to be rude. I guess I should refrain from using that until you get to know me.

Forgivness comes.. NOT because we call ourselves Christians but because we call upon the Name of the Lord and his blood washed ALL sin away. Living for HIM is what we WANT to do but it is surely not a requirement for salvation and forgivness. I agree with TJ3.

[arcura]

samdarwen .
Sam you are right. To be a Christian means to work at being one, accepting Christ as your savior and doing as he taught by word and deed.
One thing we must keep in mind is that we are forgiven as we forgive others.
If we do not forgive we will not be forgiven and if we forgive others with conditions then we will be forgiven with conditions.
So Jesus said.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[De Maria]

Christians will be judged - according to scripture we will be judged to determine what crowns we receive as reards for our works. Christians have been forgiven their sins,

Then, if Christians have been forgiven of our sins, why do we ask God to forgive our sins in the Lord's prayer?
Luke 11:4
And forgive us our sins;

therefore our works are not a determining factor as to whether we are saved.

They seem to be a determining factor as to whether we will receive eternal life:
Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Scripture is very clear that good works follow salvation, not the other way around.

It seems that Scripture is telling us to work or God will not save us.
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Those who have not received Christ as Saviour are under the law, and are judged by their works for salvation.

Wow! A breakthrough!

Since Romans 3:23 is clear that all have sinned, then those who are not saved are facing an eternity in hell.

I don't see where Romans 3:23 condemns all to hell. It simply says all have sinned. There is such a thing as repentance, isn't there?

Read Galatians 3.

I have. I see nothing there which says that we will be saved if we do not obey Christ as you insinuate.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

I am making no broader theological claim. I am simply pointing out what the verse says, and what it doesn't. It doesn't say anything one way or another about works.

It neither says that in local context or in the wider context. Where you get your private interpretation from is beyond me.

While I agree that the context is salvation, notice that the word "salvation" does not occur even once in this passage.

You are playing word games. Being saved means that one has received salvation.

[Tj3]

Then, if Christians have been forgiven of our sins, why do we ask God to forgive our sins in the Lord's prayer?
Luke 11:4
And forgive us our sins;

For some, they need to asked because perhaps they have never received Jesus as Saviour. For others it is acknowledging that it is a two way street.

Luke 11:4
4 And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one."
NKJV

Sin is an on-going problem while we are here on earth, and while the sin of those of us who are saved has been paid for, from our perspective, we see it on a time-line, where we sin and are forgiven.

But by the same token, why would you think that we ask God not to lead us into temptation when God would never do that?

It seems that Scripture is telling us to work or God will not save us.
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

What? Because Jesus is the author of all who are saved, we have to work? That is completely contradictory. If He is the author, He did it, not us. The author of the book writes the book, not the readers.

I don't see where Romans 3:23 condemns all to hell. It simply says all have sinned. There is such a thing as repentance, isn't there?

Read more carefully. Did I say that everyone was condemned to hell? No.

Read carefully, who did I say was condemned to hell?

[Akoue]

It neither says that in local context or in the wider context. Where you get your private interpretation from is beyond me.

The verse from 1Jn. That you quoted says nothing about works. I stand by that.

You are playing word games. Being saved means that one has received salvation.

The passage from Ephesians is talking about the role of grae in salvation. The "it" that we have been discussing refers to grace. I stand by that.

We've gone over these passages before, and I said the same thing then that I'm saying now. You are reading a lot into the text and distorting them in the process. I've explained each. I leave it to others to make up their own minds.

[Tj3]

The verse from 1Jn. That you quoted says nothing about works. I stand by that.

Deny the context - your choice.

The passage from Ephesians is talking about the role of grae in salvation. The "it" that we have been discussing refers to grace. I stand by that.

And you will fight to death to avoid the context - I know, we've been down this road before.

[Akoue]

Deny the context - your choice.



And you will fight to death to avoid the context - I know, we've been down this road before.

What context is going to change the meaning of "it"? You're the one who cited the passages. Now that you can't back up your reading of them you're making vague allusions to context. People hide behind talk of context all the time when they have nothing concrete to bring forward in defense of indefensible claims. You misread the passages. That's all there is to it.