[JudyKayTee]

Time Magazine (12/8/08, p 36) has a featured article entitled, “Can She Save Our Schools,” about Michelle Rhee, Chancellor of the District of Public School System.

I find Time to be a credible source and was shocked by the statistics in the article, all of which pertain only to developed nations:

The US spends more per pupil on elementary and HS education than “most,” BUT US children are behind “most” children in math and science abilities.

Thirteen percent of HS freshmen drop out and do not graduate (from HS); obviously, 77% do.

When compared to Canadian students, US students have scientific scores which are 45% lower.

In Washington, DC only 36% of students are considered (following testing) proficient in math, 39% in science.

For the first time in history this generation's children are LESS likely than their parents to finish HS and, in general, will have less education than their parents.

Ms. Rhee finds the problem to be ineffective teachers. In general, students in rural areas have better scores. Factors for the low urban scores are disinterested or absent parents, poverty (children in one parent households or unmarried households in general are raised with less income) and hunger (which is part of the poverty factor).

I find these statistics shocking and wonder if the statistics will only get worse.

[speechlesstx]

Sure absent parents are a problem, but as long as our public education system is under a liberal death grip it will only get worse. That is unless they decide to stop doing the same failed things over and over hoping for a different outcome. What did they expect for intentionally dumbing down the education system, increased scores?

“Reforms” such as Outcome Based Education, “cooperative learning,” “learning outcomes” with no objective standards, “affective” rather than academic goals, and other politically correct nonsense are abject failures. But thankfully we have a new president that runs in the same circle as that ‘educator’ Bill Ayers, who wants teachers to be “capable of hope and struggle, outrage and action, a teacher teaching for social justice and liberation.” That’ll fix things.

[NeedKarma]

but as long as our public education system is under a liberal death grip it will only get worse.

Lol!

[speechlesstx]

lol!

I'm always happy to amuse you, NK. Just for a change of pace though, prove me wrong, show us some substance, offer an argument.

[Akoue]

Is there any evidence to support the notion that countries with a more conservative bias than the US typically outperform American students, while more liberal countries tend to underperform? I should think decidedly not. Or: Do students in more conservative states like Alabama and Arkansas typically outperform students in more liberal states like Massachusetts and New York? The answer seems pretty clear to me.

[NeedKarma]

I'm always happy to amuse you, NK. Just for a change of pace though, prove me wrong, show us some substance, offer an argument.

From the OP:

When compared to Canadian students, US students have scientific scores which are 45% lower.

And we all how conservative we have been for the last 20 years. :)

[Synnen]

Having grown up in a state that ended up in the top 10 for education pretty much every year I've ever looked, and then working in a university in a state that was in the LAST 5 pretty much every year, I can give an idea on what it is:

It's how we distribute pay to teachers and administrators.

Schools that have a high percentage of students passing certain standardized tests (and please note--some states do NOT use nationally standardized tests) are the schools that get raises, get money to spend on upgrading the school, and essentially get more "perks".

Schools that do not score as high often have layoffs and restructuring every few years to try to get them to do "better", but the constant change of teachers, staff, and programming results in more confusion, and in no one wanting to work at those schools.

Then the "No Child Left Behind" thing screwed EVERYTHING up. That program needs to be deleted. Self esteem isn't something that teachers should be teaching--it's what parents should be teaching. Ask some school in another first-world country whether they CARE whether a child's feelings were hurt when they got an F instead of an OK on their test. Their feelings SHOULD be hurt!

Get rid of paying according to students passing a test that you can teach them.

Get rid of "no child left behind"

Get rid of teachers having to teach more than education. Self esteem, respect, proper grooming, all of that sort of thing---that should be taught by PARENTS.

Start holding PARENTS responsible for their kids not doing well in school, instead of the teachers. Stop giving Welfare to drop-outs---a high school diploma or GED should be required to get Welfare, don't you think? Hold kids back that can't read, and haven't learned anything. FAIL students that don't make the effort to learn.

The MAIN problem is that people look on education in the US as a RIGHT and not a PRIVILEGE.

[speechlesstx]

From the OP:
And we all how conservative we have been for the last 20 years. :)

Since the post was about education in the US I kept my comments about the liberal death grip on education in the US. My challenge to you still stands, you've shown nothing other than two different systems had two different outcomes.

[JudyKayTee]

Having grown up in a state that ended up in the top 10 for education pretty much every year I've ever looked, and then working in a university in a state that was in the LAST 5 pretty much every year, I can give an idea on what it is:

It's how we distribute pay to teachers and administrators.

Schools that have a high percentage of students passing certain standardized tests (and please note--some states do NOT use nationally standardized tests) are the schools that get raises, get money to spend on upgrading the school, and essentially get more "perks".

Schools that do not score as high often have layoffs and restructuring every few years to try to get them to do "better", but the constant change of teachers, staff, and programming results in more confusion, and in no one wanting to work at those schools.

Then the "No Child Left Behind" thing screwed EVERYTHING up. That program needs to be deleted. Self esteem isn't something that teachers should be teaching--it's what parents should be teaching. Ask some school in another first-world country whether or not they CARE whether a child's feelings were hurt when they got an F instead of an OK on their test. Their feelings SHOULD be hurt!

Get rid of paying according to students passing a test that you can teach them.

Get rid of "no child left behind"

Get rid of teachers having to teach more than education. Self esteem, respect, proper grooming, all of that sort of thing---that should be taught by PARENTS.

Start holding PARENTS responsible for their kids not doing well in school, instead of the teachers. Stop giving Welfare to drop-outs---a high school diploma or GED should be required to get Welfare, don't you think? Hold kids back that can't read, and haven't learned anything. FAIL students that don't make the effort to learn.

The MAIN problem is that people look on education in the US as a RIGHT and not a PRIVILEGE.

Have you read the article? Half of DC apparently thinks she's a maverick and the other half think she's a Saint. I don't know enough to come down on either side but I know you do. I'd be interested in what you think (if you get a chance to read it).

[Synnen]

Haven't read the article yet (I'm at work, and keep getting caught here), but I've got Time's website pulled up so that I can take a look when I get a chance.

The whole thing just frustrates me (as is obvious by my post)

[Synnen]

Okay, read the article.

She ROCKS! It's about time someone started holding people accountable for education--and while it's NOT always the teachers, there's a good reason why some people should not teach.

I've also got several friends who got their teaching certifications/licenses---and who quit after 2 years because they saw people who were less effective and who cared less about education getting rewarded because they knew the right people to suck up to, and because they knew how to win popularity contests with the students. If you know you're going to get passed over or reprimanded for holding your students to a high standard, the bureaucracy of the entire thing gets to you at some point.

I wanted to teach at one point---until I realized that I would spend more time sucking up and jumping through hoops than I would actually teaching---and that I would be prevented from actually teaching things that might interfere with students' self-esteem or that might be "too challenging" for them.

Best teacher I ever had was Mr. Lee, in 9th grade. HATED him while I was in his class. His homework made me cry. And I learned more from him than I did from any other teacher I ever had---ever. I wish I could go back and thank him. But he certainly wouldn't have won any popularity contests---but he made sure you LEARNED in his class. More teachers should be like that.

[tomder55]

I linked to an excellent article by Atlantic Magazine about Rhee here

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/curren...ve-283929.html

And in this posting

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/politi...-235922-2.html

I'm thrilled she is beginning to get the recogition for her reform efforts she deserves.

[JudyKayTee]

She ROCKS!! It's about time someone started holding people accountable for education--and while it's NOT always the teachers, there's a good reason why some people should not teach.

Thanks - I value your opinion on this.

[tomder55]

there's a good reason why some people should not teach

And believe it or not there are very qualified people who would love to teach and can't break into the profession .

[TexasParent]

Sure absent parents are a problem, but as long as our public education system is under a liberal death grip it will only get worse. That is unless they decide to stop doing the same failed things over and over hoping for a different outcome. What did they expect for intentionally dumbing down the education system, increased scores?

“Reforms” such as Outcome Based Education, “cooperative learning,” “learning outcomes” with no objective standards, “affective” rather than academic goals, and other politically correct nonsense are abject failures. But thankfully we have a new president that runs in the same circle as that ‘educator’ Bill Ayers, who wants teachers to be “capable of hope and struggle, outrage and action, a teacher teaching for social justice and liberation.” That’ll fix things.

I wonder what a conservative death grip would look like? :D

[Synnen]

Agreed, Tomder.

The biggest thing I see happening too often, though, are the people that train for something completely different--they get an English degree, or a history degree, say--and can't get the job they REALLY want (like being a historical verifier of costumes for Hollywood, or some such) and so fall back on teaching. I've seen it happen with a ton of people in as many professions. They can't get a job in the field, so fall back on teaching others what they know. It's sad, really, because for so many people, teaching is a calling, and to watch people with higher degrees (their PhD to your Masters, perhaps) get the position just because of their degree and NOT because they are "qualified" with the right temperament or drive or whatever---that's frustration. Teaching should NOT be a fallback position.

Bah... I know I'm not expressing myself well right now. I truly believe there are so many improvements to education that need to happen, and the red tape everywhere drives me nuts.

[speechlesstx]

I wonder what a conservative death grip would look like? :D

It would be just as ugly only different :D

[N0help4u]

Yeah it has been that way for years. I think it was India and China are way ahead of us in Math and science.
Kids are not taught a lot of what we were taught anymore.
They are being taught social issues mostly from what I hear.
Even our private schooled kids exceed the public school teachings.

[inthebox]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/arts/02stud.html


Turn off the TV, computer !


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Irish Examiner - 2008/04/19: Fewer TVs at home key to academic success

Students need to read more and have more meaningful interactions with their parents.

I think there are other factors, such as
- 2 parent vs single parent household
- sexual activity [ obviously being pregnant is not conducive to studying ]
- drug and alcohol use
- parental emphasison or lack of emphasis on education

All these are Conservative issues.

I think the liberal agenda is more permissive toward drug use, sexual activity, and de-emphasizes the traditional nuclear family.
It seems the educational emphasis is on tolerance, global warming, self esteem rather than on achievement based on merit, or the basics like reading writing and math.




-------------------------------------------------


God bless all you teachers out there!









g&p

[tomder55]

Synnen

In a specific case (and I don't think this is the exception) ; someone who worked as a scientist for years and was very successful in the field ,got a passion to teach.She went back to school ;got a Masters in Education ,and can't get consistent work because of mandatory pay rates for teachers with higher education. What happens is that this person if lucky teaches for a couple of years and gets dumped before tenure kicks in... More often than not however ;when new hires are considered the school districts, for budgetary reasons ,opts for the teacher right out of college over a trained scientist .