[arcura]

Matthew 7:The true disciple
21. `It is not anyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22. When the day comes many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?'
23. Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, all evil doers!
24. `Therefore, everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on rock.
25. Rain came down, floods rose, gales blew and hurled themselves against that house, and it did not fall: it was founded on rock.
26. But everyone who listens to these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a stupid man who built his house on sand.
27. Rain came down, floods rose, gales blew and struck that house, and it fell; and what a fall it had!"
:confused:So who is Jesus talking about here?:confused:
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

[franneh]

Is He talking about those who talk the talk without walking the walk? Or to the people who think good deeds alone will get you into Heaven... Good deeds are good but in order to get into Heaven you must know Him.

[arcura]

franneh,
Good questions.
But I believe what the bible says about that.
Jesus tells his followers that we will no them by their works, that is by the fruit they bear.
Matthew 7: 15. `Beware of false prophets who come to you disguised as sheep but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16. You will be able to tell them by their fruits. Can people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17. In the same way, a sound tree produces good fruit but a rotten tree bad fruit.
18. A sound tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19. Any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown on the fire.
20. I repeat, you will be able to tell them by their fruits.
Good followers of Jesus bear good fruit. That is they do good works to prove their faith for a faith without works is dead, dead, dead.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[inthebox]

arcura,

What does vs 22

22. When the day comes many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?'

Mean?

I mean, how do you tell the difference between "works" and "fruit?" Or does God only know that?





g&p

[fully_alive]

Those who call Jesus Lord but do not obey him and his word will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Those who belong to Christ Jesus abide in him and they obey him.
:D

[arcura]

inthebox,
They go together.There is no difference between works and fruit other than works produce the fruit.
Example.
Jesus is the grape vine.
We are the branches of the grape vine which work to produce the fruit.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Good followers of Jesus bear good fruit. That is they do good works to prove their faith for a faith without works is dead, dead, dead.

Fred,

I think that you are partly there. The works come as a result of their salvation, but I would question if those who are saved "...do good works to prove their faith". I would suggest that the good works of those who are saved come as a natural consequence of the Holy Spirit indwelling the person, and therefore is not an attempt to prove their faith, but rather is evidence of their faith.

Keep in mind that in the original Greek of the NT, the word use for faith is the same as faithfulness, so if one has faith, then the natural consequence is that one will act on that faith. For example, if you have a child and you love that child, you will provide for that child and do what you can to make the child healthy and happy - but it is not to prove to others that you love the child, but it is a natural consequence of the love that you have for the child. It is the evidence of that love. The same is true with faith and faithfulness.

[classyT]

Well, I don't see this as being all that controversial. Notice what the Lord says to them when they say haven't we done this and that in your name? The Lord is clear.. he says to depart from him for he NEVER knew them. There are so many people who say they are Christian. They celebrate Christmas, go to church do good deeds. But they have got NO relationship the Lord Jesus. They don't know him and he NEVER knew them. It is easy to say you are a Christian, there is a big difference in head knowledge and heart knowledge.

[Galveston1]

Something else to think about. If the miracle works listed don't merit Heaven, then what makes us think that ANY lesser works will merit Heaven?

The Apostle Paul said that even if he gave his body to be burned it profited him nothing if he did not have charity. (agape)

[N0help4u]

Besides what others have said
Especially classyT's church goers doing good deeds
I think a large part of it is they are doing 'good works' but not WHAT God might be wanting of them. Like they might be doing lunches for church socials and singing in the choir while God would rather they were working at the soup kitchen.
I think that is a part of the story in Cain and Abel.
God blessed the ones work while he cursed the others.
The one was a blood offering, while the other was a work of the earth. One was in faith, one was not.
God's Story: From Creation to Eternity, page 7 - ChristianAnswers.Net
We are either spiritual and giving offerings pleasing to God or we are professing and relying on our earthly fruits in our own efforts.
So we have to go by what God wants from us personally. IF he tells us to give our body to be burned, if he tells us to yield fruit, if he tells us to prophesy,. that is what we should be doing.

[Akoue]

Galveston1,

Well, sure, but no one's suggesting that works *without faith* merit heaven. No one disagrees that works alone aren't going to do the trick. The point is that faith without works is insufficient--or, if we take a clue from a recent posting, that faith without works may not really be faith. Neither faith alone, nor works alone, but faith and works together.

(I feel I've said this before... recently.)

[Tj3]

Galveston1,
The point is that faith without works is insufficient--

Scripture says otherwise:

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

[Akoue]

Yes, and as I pointed out at #32 on the thread "How will you be judged on judgment day", you've misunderstood Eph.2. To save you having to look up what I wrote, I'll quote you a relevant bit from my post:

Let me try to explain why I find your reiterations of Eph.2 unhelpful. Whether you take the "it" which opens the clause at v. 8 ("it is the gift of God") to refer to "grace" or to "faith", the claim is that it is the gift of God; it is not produced by means of good works. Fine. But this is entirely different from the claim--which you mean to advance--that works don't matter at all. At best, the passage is allowing for a distinction between faith and works. It certainly doesn't say that you are saved by faith *alone*. (In fact, what it says is that without grace you can't be saved, on which I take it we agree. The "it" refers to grace, which is the topic of the paragraph in which the pericope occurs--we require grace; we cannot save ourselves by our own unaided efforts.) The grace we receive is not achieved by works. I have already granted that faith is required for salvation, so the claim that we are "saved through faith" isn't a problem for me. It would be a problem for me if the passage read that we are saved through faith and that works play no part. But it doesn't say that, of course. In fact, there's a semicolon between the relevant clauses. You seem to read the passage awkwardly, as stating that we are saved through faith and "not of works". But that makes complete mush of the surface grammar. The claim is rather that grace is a gift "of God" and not "of works" (this comes out still more clearly in the Greek, inflected pronouns and all). But nobody is denying that. Who would?

You didn't have a good answer to my objections then. Do you have one now?

[arcura]

Akoue,
I agree with you.
Faith alone can not and does not save.
Faith alone is dead.
The dead can not save the dead.
We are judged by our works both good and bad if any.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Yes, and as I pointed out at #32 on the thread "How will you be judged on judgment day", you've misunderstood Eph.2. To save you having to look up what I wrote, I'll quote you a relevant bit from my post:

And I explained to you why you erred in your interpretation. Do you want to just copy and paste the whole discussion again?

Let me try to explain why I find your reiterations of Eph.2 unhelpful. Whether you take the "it" which opens the clause at v. 8 ("it is the gift of God") to refer to "grace" or to "faith", the claim is that it is the gift of God;

Let's see what it says:

Eph 2:7-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

The context is clear. Read the whole of the wider context. It is clear.

It is not produced by means of good works. Fine. But this is entirely different from the claim--which you mean to advance--that works don't matter at all.

Please take the time to actually read what I posted. No one, including myself said that works do not matter. It is just that, as scripture says, they play absolutely no part in our salvation.

As for 1 Jn.8-9, nothing whatever is said about faith vs. works (neither word appears).

If ALL righteousness comes through Christ, NONE comes through us.

Notice that I haven't tried to refute anything,

More to the point, in most cases you have not actually addressed the points that have been raised.

On Romans 3. Yes, exactly, faith, faith, faith. There is no salvation without faith.
This is what I mean - you missed what it said - or maybe ignored.

Rom 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NKJV

Where do we find works in here? As I pointed out to Fred:

Rom 3:28-29
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
NKJV

All you are doing is just denying over and over but as of yet, you have failed to show any scriptural justification for your argument. Just denying the obvious may get you the cheerleaders like fred, but it does not win you any real points.

So it is only through Christ's sacrifice that we are saved. Apart from that sacrifice there could be no salvation.

That alone ends the discussion because that tells us that His sacrifice is sufficient. Nothing more can be or needs to be added.

If we fail to respond, well, then we aren't saved. So in that sense, the sacrifice isn't sufficient for one's salvation:

That argument holds no water. It is a word game. If someone gives you a gift at Christmas, when you receive it, is that work?

You didn't have a good answer to my objections then. Do you have one now?

Whether you accept what scripture says, or you prefer your own private interpretation is your concern.

[adam7gur]

John 8:2 And early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them.

3 And the scribes and the Pharisees *brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the midst,

4 they *said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.

5 "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"

6 And they were saying this, testing Him, in order that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground.

7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

8 And again He stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And when they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the midst.

10 And straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"

11 And she said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go your way. From now on sin no more."


What do I make of this?
Well , at first the woman was caught in adultery in the very act so those who caught her must have also caught a man, but somehow they did not bring him in front of Jesus!Hypocrisy!
Then they use the law for at least two reasons.1st , to kill the woman 2nd , to tempt Jesus.
We all know how this ends but lets take a second look.
The scribes and the Pharisees brought her to Jesus, the scribes and the Pharisees wanted her life .The scribes and the Pharisees are people who do know God , but knowing is not obeying!
Jesus saves her from them.She is saved not from God , but by God.And who is she saved from?She is saved from the world.The world wanted her life , not God.It was not God that brought her in that place.It was not God that wanted her life, it was the world, so God saved her from the world.
And who is the world?
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.

The devil is the adversary,the world.
So , who is this woman saved from?She is saved from the devil!

Matthew 9:21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.

22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Mark 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Notice that in the Greek NT the word for whole is esose which means you are saved!

So this woman was saved from the world, from the devil,through her faith , and it was faith that she had because we see her not fighting back but giving herself up in front of Jesus,waiting for His decission and that is faith!
And once she was saved what did Jesus tell her? And Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you; go your way. From now on sin no more."
What does she have to do to make God's mercy on her not waisted?She has to sin no more.That's her works !Without that God's mercy won't be the same.She would still be saved from the world , because God saved her life but then she had to stand before God to explain why she did not listen to Him?

Yes, faith saves us, not from God's wrath but from the world's hatred.After that , we have to sin no more , and if we do make a mistake and sin , we have to repent while there is time for us to repent. Repent is also our works !
Fred
To answear your question , The Lord is speaking about people who do know Him but not obey Him, in other words , the scribes and the Pharisees!

[artlady]

Hi Fred..
I have to tell you a concern I have

I often wonder about this..
People who are pedophiles and murderer's and all manner of evil that when they get to prison.. they get with (so they say) God and they are reborn.. and please know for those true believers I am thrilled but its like there are more born again's in jail than anywhere.

I just don't buy it and as a Christian I don't want to judge but c'mon... it just doesn't ring true and I know I should pray for these people and love them but I can't when I still feel like they are lying.

I feel like they are using Jesus as a get out of jail free card .if you will. And its not real Its like a double crime.Not only are they saying they are born again but they are degrading the Lord at the same time.

I know I'm being judgmental.. my bad again... I guess I have a long way to go before I can be that forgiving. I try every day not to judge and to forgive.Its like my mantra :p

I am old :confused: I'm 54 and Ive been workin' on it for many a year but there are some things I just can't forgive.Not in my personal life but bad bad people.I see them as a mistake .Gods mistake.

Thanks for listening.. I know I really veered off the subject!

All Gods love.. Michele

[revdrgade]

The "evil ones" could be those who are very religious in public acts but have no personal relationship with God.

They are fine until they run into adversity in their own personal lives. If a person doesn't know the love of God for themselves, they will be devastated when their own strength and popularity fails.

[N0help4u]

revdrgade summed it up exactly right!

[Akoue]

Ah, the Tj two-step. Okay, partner, let's dance.

"No one, including myself said that works do not matter."

See my post #36 (on the thread "How will you be judged on judgment day?"): "I took it to be blazingly obvious that when I have employed the locution "works don't matter" I meant this to be shorthand for "works aren't relevant for the purposes of salvation". I took this to be obvious both because I have used the two locutions in apposition and because the topic is... whether works are necessary for salvation. Your claim--sometimes in caps--has been that they are not." (I include the quotes for ease of reference.)

"More to the point, in most cases you have not actually addressed the points that have been raised."

Well, I addressed each of the points you cared to make (as is evident to anyone who cares to glance at the last couple of pages of the other thread--I assumed this is why you withdrew). And here I am, doing it again. I've already addressed each of the Scriptural passages you adduced--and De Maria provided lots of Scriptural evidence that works do matter (you weren't able to show that she had misunderstood those passages, whereas I did show that you misunderstand the passages you favor).

On Romans 3: Recall that, as I pointed out at #32 and again at #33, the faith/works distinction isn't the same as the faith/law distinction. Rm.3 is concerned with the latter: We don't have to be Jewish in order to be Christian. We aren't bound by the strictures of the Pentateuch. The claim that we aren't bound by the Law is not the claim that works aren't a necessary (though not sufficient) condition for salvation.

"That alone ends the discussion because that tells us that His sacrifice is sufficient. Nothing more can be or needs to be added."

See my post #36: "All righteousness comes through Christ. Right. But where does justification come from? What justifies me? Christ. Well, then what about faith? If your latest gloss on 1 Jn. is that all that matters is Christ's sacrifice, then does faith not matter either? (In the sense of "matter" adumbrated above, just to be clear.) If I am saved just by virtue of the fact that Christ died, then I must not need faith in order to be saved. But surely you can't mean to say that. Though you flirt with it when you write that "His sacrifice is sufficient. Nothing more can be or needs to be added." Nothing? Nothing at all? Not even faith? have you jettisoned your original position?"

There, I've responded, yet again, point by point. As I've indicated before, by disagreeing with you *I am responding* (disagreement is a mode of response). Now I'd really rather not keep reproducing lines from another thread, but there's nothing new for me to say since you haven't met the still outstanding burden of demonstrating that I have misunderstood the passages under consideration. I have dutifully, and patiently, explained why I take your readings to be faulty. If you can't respond by carefully and rigorously unpacking those passages in such a way as to make evident my error, then you lose the argument. That's how rational discourse goes.

Oh, and just to reiterate, a-friggin'-gain: The "wider context" of Eph.2 shows that the "it" that is unmerited, that is a gift, is grace. Grace and faith aren't the same thing. These are just basic distinctions. Why not just return to the other thread and respond to my objections there, rather than taking up here a line that you failed to vindicate just a couple of weeks ago?