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yeaitsme · Dec 2, 2008, 06:31 PM

Why is a person considered intolerant if they are for the Gay Marriage Ban. Let's take that question a bit farther, why is a person intolerant if they teach their children that being gay is wrong. And in teaching that lesson a parent also says that you do not hate, make fun of or otherwise belittle the person you just feel sorry for them. That you always stick up for your views and not let the liberal left thinking creep into your thought process. Why is someone that does that considered to be intolerant. If that's their belief why are they considered to be bigots, and hate mongers. I really hope someone can answer this because it seems that anything goes today but if you disagree and try to teach your children what you believe to be the right way to live, your perceived by some as intolerant. If you even talk about your views and share them with others your spreading hate. I will check back often as the answers I'm sure will be interesting.

Alty · Dec 2, 2008, 06:44 PM

Let me ask you a question.

Is it okay to discriminate against fat people? Should we ban fat people? Should we teach our children that being fat is wrong, after all, it isn't good for you, can ultimately kill you. Do you believe that being fat is okay? Do you talk to others about fat people? Be honest.

There are many people that are overweight, obese that have a medical condition that prevents them from losing weight. As a society we view being obese as wrong, some people are very intolerant towards overweight people. Is that okay?

If you say no to that question then you have to ask yourself if it's okay to be intolerant of gay people. Being gay is not a choice, you either are or you aren't. Nobody would choose to be gay, there are too many hurdles to jump when you come out, who would willing do that? No one. So, being intolerant of something that someone cannot change, well yes, I think that is bigoted, I do think those people are hate mongers.

Do you expect people to accept your way of life, your decisions? Of course you do, everyone does. What do you hope to gain by teaching your children to be intolerant of a large group of people? What if one of your kids ends up being gay?

If everyone could just love each other for who they are, well, the world would be a better place.

In other words, I think gays should have the right to marry, just like the rest of the human beings on this earth. I teach my kids tolerance, acceptance. Everyone is different, who are we to decided what is right and what is wrong?

kitten420 · Dec 2, 2008, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Let me ask you a question.

Is it okay to discriminate against fat people? Should we ban fat people? Should we teach our children that being fat is wrong, after all, it isn't good for you, can ultimately kill you. Do you believe that being fat is okay? Do you talk to others about fat people? Be honest.

There are many people that are overweight, obese that have a medical condition that prevents them from losing weight. As a society we view being obese as wrong, some people are very intolerant towards overweight people. Is that okay?

If you say no to that question then you have to ask yourself if it's okay to be intolerant of gay people. Being gay is not a choice, you either are or you aren't. Nobody would choose to be gay, there are too many hurdles to jump when you come out, who would willing do that? No one. So, being intolerant of something that someone cannot change, well yes, I think that is bigoted, I do think those people are hate mongers.

Do you expect people to accept your way of life, your decisions? Of course you do, everyone does. What do you hope to gain by teaching your children to be intolerant of a large group of people? What if one of your kids ends up being gay?

If everyone could just love eachother for who they are, well, the world would be a better place.

In other words, I think gays should have the right to marry, just like the rest of the human beings on this earth. I teach my kids tolerance, acceptance. Everyone is different, who are we to decided what is right and what is wrong?

This was answerd right down to the exact point! Thank you... very much agreed and I would love to give you some rep. but unfortunately I tend to agree on a lot of things you write so I must spread the rep.

asking · Dec 2, 2008, 08:27 PM

Why would anyone object to someone marrying the person they love? Why would anyone tell an entire class of people to conceal who they are as if who and what they are were somehow shameful.

As Alty says, should fat people be banned from restaurants and grocery stores? Should they "go back into the closet" and order groceries and meals from home, hiding behind their doors when the delivery person comes to conceal their condition? Should they refrain from marrying and having children so that they do not pass on their fat lifestyle to the next generation? Why shouldn't we propose legislation to begin this fat lifestyle control? The fat marriage ban? Would someone who advocated the extreme repression of the overweight be considered intolerant?

liz28 · Dec 3, 2008, 05:17 AM

It is okay to have your opinons, that is what this site is about, but you crossed the line in your opinons and tried to make it seem like a fact.

In your other post you stated children is a same sex marriage are abused and it is horrible for kids and when other members asked you for facts to match your therory you tried to bashed the other members why saying it is common sense and basically everyone didn't have common sense when your false fact was question.

Now you stated being gay is not right and it states so in the bible but I have a question for you. Why is it that God can forgive mass murders, serial rapists, people that commit crimes against kids, etc but when it comes to gay peoole they are damn to hell? They deserve to be accepted they aren't hurting anyone. How is then getting married effecting you? A lot of them don't even get married in a church due to the judgement but have civil marriages instead but if they're gay it means they can attend church like you and I.

I think you need to think before you write because if you take a look at what you wrote in you're the other post it came out as a hate speech with no facts and crossed the line of being an opinon.

Fr_Chuck · Dec 3, 2008, 07:16 AM

It is to try and make their view point sound more acceptable. When there is little productive argument for your case, you attack those that are against it.

By trying to show those that stand up for moral values and family values as bad, they then make their view point appear to be the socially acceptable one.

By doing this, too many people who really feel it is wrong are to scared to stand up for their personal beleifs.

NeedKarma · Dec 3, 2008, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

By trying to show those that stand up for moral values and family values

Both sides stand up for moral values and family values so that's not really the point.

Other than that the OP seems to be just trolling this site.

yeaitsme · Dec 3, 2008, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Altenweg

Let me ask you a question.

Is it okay to discriminate against fat people? Should we ban fat people? Should we teach our children that being fat is wrong, after all, it isn't good for you, can ultimately kill you. Do you believe that being fat is okay? Do you talk to others about fat people? Be honest.

There are many people that are overweight, obese that have a medical condition that prevents them from losing weight. As a society we view being obese as wrong, some people are very intolerant towards overweight people. Is that okay?

If you say no to that question then you have to ask yourself if it's okay to be intolerant of gay people. Being gay is not a choice, you either are or you aren't. Nobody would choose to be gay, there are too many hurdles to jump when you come out, who would willing do that? No one. So, being intolerant of something that someone cannot change, well yes, I think that is bigoted, I do think those people are hate mongers.

Do you expect people to accept your way of life, your decisions? Of course you do, everyone does. What do you hope to gain by teaching your children to be intolerant of a large group of people? What if one of your kids ends up being gay?

If everyone could just love eachother for who they are, well, the world would be a better place.

In other words, I think gays should have the right to marry, just like the rest of the human beings on this earth. I teach my kids tolerance, acceptance. Everyone is different, who are we to decided what is right and what is wrong?

Your serious, this is your answer. Fat People and Restaurants? Where does tolerance stop. If your correct shouldn't I also teach my children to be tolerant of someone that chooses to have sex with a minor (as long as the minor gives consent ofcourse). And should I teach tolerance of say abortion since it's legal. What about someone who commits murder, who are we to say they shouldn't have killed someone maybe they had good reason. Heck why teach them anything, if everythings OK then I guess I don't need to even be a parent. If they ask me anything I will just tell them to be tolerant of everything. Wow thanks you just made my parent job so much easier.

yeaitsme · Dec 3, 2008, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Both sides stand up for moral values and family values so that's not really the point.

Other than that the OP seems to be just trolling this site.

Both sides stand up for moral issues? Find that in the bible for me, I missed that verse.

NeedKarma · Dec 3, 2008, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by yeaitsme

both sides stand up for moral issues? find that in the bible for me, I missed that verse.

Noted. Christians don't stand up for moral values, non-christians do. Thanks for the clarification.

asking · Dec 3, 2008, 08:32 AM

Where does tolerance stop? Shall we go back to prosecuting single men and women for having sex outside of marriage? Shall we prosecute married couples for engaging in oral sex? Shall we prosecute anyone who charges interest on a loan, even if it's only a quarter percent? Shall we prevent blacks from using the same drinking fountain as white skinned people? Shall we jail women who attempt to vote or try to sign legal contracts? Shall we allow vivisection of dogs and cats?

All of these things used to be considered socially acceptable or intolerable at some time in history. Now we feel the opposite. If moral values are not set in stone, how can we be sure they have any meaning? Is it wrong to cut up dogs or not? You feel so certain that it is, as I do, yet our ancestors didn't think much of it.

It IS hard to tell what's wrong and what's not wrong. But one way to tell is if the action directly affects another person or animal. Cutting open a living creature hurts it. Preventing blacks from voting or owning property is unjust and hurts them politically and economically. And likewise, oral sex between a husband and wife is not considered to harm anyone and it's up to them as consenting adults.

Yeahitsme, you argue that gay marriage hurts others. So show us how two men marrying hurts you personally. They could be in another city, but let's say they live in your town but don't go to your church. They live half a mile a way and you see them once a month or so at the grocery store or the dry cleaners. They would be together whether they were allowed to marry or not. But with a marriage, they can inherit from one another and visit each other in the hospital without making a lot of special arrangements and arguing with hospital staff at a difficult time when one of them is ill or injured. You would like to prevent them from having those legal rights.

So everything is the same, except for this legal connection of theirs. Being gay is already legal and living with someone you love is legal. How does that extra step, a legal (not your church) marriage hurt you? Please explain because I want to know.

Alty · Dec 3, 2008, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by yeaitsme

your serious, this is your answer. Fat People and Restaurants? Where does tolerance stop. If your correct shouldn't i also teach my children to be tolerant of someone that chooses to have sex with a minor (as long as the minor gives consent ofcourse). And should i teach tolerance of say abortion since it's legal. What about someone who commits murder, who are we to say they shouldn't have killed someone maybe they had good reason. Heck why teach them anything, if everythings ok then i guess i don't need to even be a parent. If they ask me anything i will just tell them to be tolerant of everything. Wow thanks you just made my parent job so much easier.

Wow, sarcasm, great!

Do you tolerate anyone, I'm beginning to think you don't. You certainly aren't tolerating any of us, all because we don't agree with you.

You asked for an opinion, I gave it to you. You don't have to agree, but, last time I checked, I have a right to my opinion, or don't I? Maybe in your world only your opinion matters and counts.

As for your examples, those are extremes where other people are actually hurting those around them. Contrary to what you believe, gays don't hurt anyone just by being gay. I have gay friends, here in Canada gays can marry, really, it hasn't changed the way I live, it's only changed the way they do.

I feel really bad for kids who are raised to be intolerant, to be prejudice against people. You are in charge of their young minds, what you plant in there will effect them their entire lives. You are raising children that will be intolerant of others.

I'm not a perfect parent and I don't have perfect kids, but I do have kids that accept everyone around them for who they are, not what they are. If that's wrong then I don't want to be right.

Jake2008 · Dec 25, 2008, 09:47 PM

When anybody makes a judgment on the worth and value of a human being, based on what they believe to be true, they are not necessarily wrong. Guilty of being blinded by discrimination? Yes. Guilty of fostering intolerance? Yes. Guilty of presumptive assumptions as to others worth to their families, children, employers, societies? Yes.

When we take what we think to be judgment 'markers' such as biblical reference, that is seen as the truth. For those who choose to live by these rules, have created not a tolerant stance, but one of 'us' vs. 'them'. Why would any gay person have to live up to anybody's religious interpretation of who they are. Not even God would expect that.

It is the churches and the flock that feeds them (money, power, and influence), that keeps the issue of inequity alive.

To go beyond that narrow vision, for some, is impossible. To realize that it is simply unjust to judge, and even more unjust to categorize people according to gender preference, is barbaric, and limits those that live by rules that were not meant to discriminate in the first place.

Love knows no boundaries, and love is not defined by any religion, or anybody's interpretation of their religion. It is far beyond the scriptures, and surpasses all earthly restrictions, and interpretations. Love is accepting, love is all encompassing, and love applies to everyone.

Take religion out of the argument, and there is no argument.

Fr_Chuck · Dec 25, 2008, 10:28 PM

Love is one thing, right and wrong from a exact moral value is another.

When my son has to see two men kissing in public after knowing that homosexual relationship is morally wrong by our beliefs, is not our rights hurt, are we not being discriminated against, guess that does not matter.

But the religious moral values have often been the minority and often the criminal element of society, so I guess today should not be any different.

So if being moral is wrong, I am proud to be so, If teaching the absolute truth of the bible or even the Koran or Torah is evil, I am glad to be the most evil of them all.

Jake2008 · Dec 25, 2008, 11:02 PM

I'm not saying you are wrong, I am not saying anybody is wrong. But to judge others, is.

I really do understand both ends of this. My younger sister announced she was gay when she was 22 years old. It was a antecedent for my mother's first heart attack, and it caused a huge rift in our family. That was 20 years ago. We were devastated. She was heartbroken.

They were different times then, and ignorance ruled the day. It was a situation that we eventually chose to accept, what else could we do. But, when it hit that close to home, it really shook everything up. Today it is no big deal, and it has come to be something that is just a normal part of our existence now. Children do not naturally discriminate gay people from straight people, that is learned from their parents.

That 'education' for lack of a better word, forced us to realize that although some did not approve, or were morally offended, those feelings and personal opinions were put aside, and the person she was before the big announcement, was the same person she was after. It was not her 'problem', it was ours.

She is an educated, well adjusted, funny, loving person. She just happens to be gay. It was not an easy adjustment for any of us, particularly my mother, but turning our backs on her was not an option. Her life is truthful and honest, and she is morally and intellectually a match for anybody. It hurts that people like her, are seen to be less deserving of love, respect, and support, simply because they are gay.

We just need to accept people, as they are.

Fr_Chuck · Dec 26, 2008, 07:51 AM

Why, should people accept her the way she is.

My next door neighbor steals, he can not help hisself. He does not beelive he has a problem, and he is happy with life just the way he is. So am I suppose to just accept him the way he is, or do I want him to stop.

And I can go on and on with people who do all sorts of things, that today's society calls wrong, but they are happy doing what they are doing,
Should we also have to accept them, if they claim they are born that way, and if they are happy with their lives doing what ever.

excon · Dec 26, 2008, 08:16 AM

Hello:

Sorry. This ISN'T about morals... It ISN'T about acceptance/tolerance. And it for sure ISN'T about what YOU think about homosexuality. SCREW those things!!

It's about the LAW, the CONSTITUTION, and CIVIL RIGHTS.

I couldn't care less whether you HATE gay people or not. It matters NOT that you may think they're the most IMMORAL people in the world... In fact, YOUR views on MORALITY don't have ANY place in this discussion.

If YOUR rights were based upon YOUR morality, I'll be you'd lose 'em real quick. Unless, of course, you're one of those NON sinning Christians.

However, since you brought it up, the TRUTH of the matter is, keeping an ENTIRE class of people from enjoying the SAME RIGHTS YOU HAVE, is pretty damn IMMORAL – pretty damn immoral, indeed!!

excon

Jake2008 · Dec 26, 2008, 09:09 AM

excon, to many people it IS about morals, because their moral compass is pointed and directed by religious beliefs. There is nothing wrong with that.

Fr_chuck, it isn't about compromising morals. That you accept gay people is not the same thing as accepting bad behaviour like liars, cheats, thieves, etc.

Because somebody is a gay burgler who robbed you blind, has nothing with him being gay. It is only about him robbing you. I'd be making a judgment too.

Being gay does not predispose you to bad behaviour. It does not also make you any less moral than anybody else. People do bad things, it matters not whether they are gay or straight.

To accept gay people, is to accept a sexual orientation, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean judging them by different standards that we judge anybody else.

It really is simply a matter of accepting people for who they are. Meaning sexual orientation. That is not the same thing as compromising your morals and standards.

There are many intellectually bankrupt people of all persuasions, and it has nothing to do with them being gay or not.

excon · Dec 26, 2008, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Jake2008

excon, to many people it IS about morals, because their moral compass is pointed and directed by religious beliefs. There is nothing wrong with that.

Hello Jake:

Oh, I understand that's what MOST people THINK it's about. I just tried to show them (and you), that it ISN'T.

You're asking people to be accepting. That's nice. I'm demanding they obey the law! BIG difference, in my view.

I agree further, people are ALLOWED to have ANY moral compass they want, pointed in any direction they, or their church, likes... What they DON'T have the right to do, is DENY gay people, or ANYONE, the very same RIGHTS they themselves, enjoy.

excon

Jake2008 · Dec 26, 2008, 11:13 AM

I agree with you excon, except prop 8 has done just that- taken away legal rights.

And who took away these rights? What was behind it? Who's money reversed it?

Again, it isn't about morality, it's about religion. That is the legal hammer used to maintain discrimination.

Would you say that's criminal? I would.