[Credendovidis]

The Bible contains two main parts : the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Both are claimed to be valid Testaments, either written by God or written by humans who were guided by God.

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction :
Jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak, a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic capriciously malevolent bully. (Dawkins).

Christianity - based on Jesus Christ - from the New Testament - has fortunately a rather different - less violent and more peaceful approach towards humanity.

The unconvincing part is where the Trinity dogma states that the God of the Old Testament is one and the same as the Jesus from the New Testament (and as the Holy Spirit).

How can these two extreme positions in the OT and the NT be combined, and still maintain any credibility??

Please no lists of bible quotations : just state your own reasoning!!

:)

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[excon]

Hello Cred:

Well, lemee see here. The Jews follow the Old Testament - and they're pretty good people. They DON'T discriminate against gay people for one, and they don't think their religion is right and the rest of 'em are wrong.

Christians do that stuff. So, maybe having a real mean God is good for you.

excon

[Credendovidis]

The Jews follow the Old Testament - and they're pretty good people.

Yes indeed. The Jews are not the problem here. They don't have the problem of contradicting books.

Christians do that stuff.

Christians use both the OT and the NT, so for them both Bible books are God's words...
Therefore I am waiting for a Christian to explain how they can live with both Bible books, added to which is the Trinity problem...

Thanks for your reaction !

:)

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[inthebox]

The Bible contains two main parts : the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Both are claimed to be valid Testaments, either written by God or written by humans who were guided by God.

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction :
jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak, a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic capriciously malevolent bully. (Dawkins).

Christianity - based on Jesus Christ - from the New Testament - has fortunately a rather different - less violent and more peaceful approach towards humanity.

The unconvincing part is where the Trinity dogma states that the God of the Old Testament is one and the same as the Jesus from the New Testament (and as the Holy Spirit).

How can these two extreme positions in the OT and the NT be combined, and still maintain any credibility ???

Please no lists of bible quotations : just state your own reasoning !!!


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Come on Cred, don't use the word of God to defend God? How disingenuous is that? :confused:
You might as well defend global warming without using temperature readings. ;)
You can't have a reasoned discussion based on your pre-requisites.



You know, the Dawkins quote can be applied to humanity in general. Look at what's going on in India or Darfur or the Congo or with white slavery or the toll drug abuse takes on families, children and society.











g&p

[Credendovidis]

Come on Cred, don't use the word of God to defend God?!

I did not ask you to defend "God". I asked you how these two extreme positions in the OT and the NT can be combined, and still maintain any credibility.

You know, the Dawkins quote can be applied to humanity in general.

That may be so, but humanity is not an example of a supernatural omniscient omnipotent entity. The "God" of the bible is claimed to be such person.
Again : therefore I asked you how these two extreme positions in the OT and the NT can be combined, and still maintain any credibility.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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[inthebox]

Here is a simple way to think about it.


In both OT and NT sin is punished.

In the OT a sacrifice was required for the atonement [ I'm not sure that is the correct theological term ] for sins.

In the NT, Jesus Christ is the sacrifice that atones for our sins.

Same theme. :);)








g&p

[Alty]

therefore I asked you how these two extreme positions in the OT and the NT can be combined, and still maintain any credibility.

They can't, which is why I don't follow either book.

[uvware]

I would like to answer your question. I'm a Christian and I believe the Bible from the Old to the New Testament.

God is the beginning and the end. There is no old and new God, what you are seeing in the old and new testaments are two different covenants.

In the old testament (before Jesus came) to be saved you had to follow the laws and traditions that God set forth. 10 commandments, sacrafices... not eating hoofed animals, etc. Only God's chosen people, the Jews could be saved if they followed His laws. God had a covenant for His chosen people.

In order to allow all of us to be saved both Jew and Gentile he realized that he needed a new covenant. That is where Jesus comes in. God sent His only son, Jesus to earth as a sacrifice to allows us the choice to be saved. The new covenant is tied to accepting Jesus as your only Lord and Savior and repenting from your sins. There is also some theories that you must be baptised, etc. the details differ from Christian demoninations.

The Trinity represents God, His son and the Holy Spirit. They have all existed since the beginning of time. I know God seemed like a different person in the OT vs. NT but read Revalations, you can see His wrath in the NT testament too.

I hope this helps

[inthebox]

Uvware; thanks

Exactly, same God.

Sin is judged and punished.

The only thing "extreme" is that God would have His only son die for our sins :)








g&p

[Alty]

I would like to answer your question. I'm a Christian and I belive the Bible from the Old to the New Testament.

God is the beginning and the end. There is no old and new God, what you are seeing in the old and new testaments are two different covenants.

In the old testament (before Jesus came) to be saved you had to follow the laws and traditions that God set forth. 10 commandments, sacrafices....not eating hoofed animals, etc. Only God's chosen people, the Jews could be saved if they followed His laws. God had a covenant for His chosen people.

In order to allow all of us to be saved both Jew and Gentile he realized that he needed a new covenant. That is where Jesus comes in. God sent His only son, Jesus to earth as a sacrafice to allows us the choice to be saved. The new covenant is tied to accepting Jesus as your only Lord and Savior and repenting from your sins. There is also some theories that you must be baptised, etc. the details differ from Christian demoninations.

The Trinity represents God, His son and the Holy Spirit. They have all existed since the beginning of time. I know God seemed like a different person in the OT vs. NT but read Revalations, you can see His wrath in the NT testament too.

I hope this helps

Good answer.

[Wondergirl]

The Christian apologetics position: the OT is an expansive history and the NT is a collection of letters. The OT covers a huge chunk of history from Creation to the Maccabean Era (the time between the testaments), whereas the NT covers only about a century.

As for intent, the OT is basically an instruction manual for forming a new nation (harsh because the emphasis had to be on law and the penalties for breaking that law), whereas the NT is an instruction manual for obtaining an intimate bond with God and reflecting his unconditional love in personal relationships.

In the Bible, God reveals himself in stages. In the OT, at the beginning, the part of God called the Father created the world and its creatures, put them in a Paradise-like setting, walked with them and talked with them, and also, like a good parent, set boundaries. Humanity crossed the boundaries, broke the connection with God, and Paradise was no more. God the Father established a fledgling nation as a handpicked representative of the world and tried to redeem them by establishing particular rules and regs, aka the Ten Commandments (OT law) that he hoped they would willingly obey out of love for him as their dear Father. Despite the fact that he helped them destroy the current occupants of the land that he promised to them and led them to, this new nation continually ignored and disobeyed the rules and regs.

Now we come to the NT. In unfailing love for this ragtag and ungrateful group of people, God the Father sent the part of him called the Son (Jesus) to earth to live a perfect life and fulfill (obey) the law perfectly (demonstrating the Old and New testaments as a cosmic good cop-bad cop routine). By this action, Jesus reestablished the broken connection between humanity and God the Father, and then enlisted the help of the part of God called the Holy Spirit to continue to bring people back to God by restoring the spiritual connection and then helping them remain connected.

[Credendovidis]

... the OT is basically an instruction manual for forming a new nation ...

It is not relevant how and why the OT and the OT were written.
The "God" in both Testaments is still one and the same entity.

The bullying violent "God" of the OT is an entirely different character than the all-you-need-is-love "God" of the NT.
There is no valid way in which the totally different characters of "God" can be explained.

The trinity claim - adding Jesus ("God's" own son) and the Holy Spirit into the same entity further adds to the problem of credibility.

:)

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[Wondergirl]

It is not relevant how and why the OT and the OT were written.

Yes, it is.

The bullying violent "God" of the OT is an entirely different character than the all-you-need-is-love "God" of the NT.

Nope. They are one and the same, as I explained. All the eye-rolling in the world does not change that.

There is no valid way in which the totally different characters of "God" can be explained.

I just did (they are "persons," not "characters"), based on Christian apologetics and many years of study.

The trinity claim - adding Jesus ("God's" own son) and the Holy Spirit into the same entity further adds to the problem of credibility.

The Trinity is called (brace yourself) a mystery. Neither you nor I can fully understand it. I explained it as simply as I could, as Christianity understands it (N.B. the three major creeds of the Christian Church).

[Credendovidis]

Nope. They are one and the same, as I explained.

Of course you may BELIEVE that...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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[Wondergirl]

Of course you may BELIEVE that ....

And you may not. (That eye rolling will make you sick, don't forget.)
:)

[Moparbyfar]

The trinity claim - adding Jesus ("God's" own son) and the Holy Spirit into the same entity further adds to the problem of credibility.

Yup, and this is why true Christians do not follow this man made belief of God being three-in-one. Just doesn't add up. ;)

[Sassysback]

[QUOTE]

Hello Cred:

Well, lemee see here. The Jews follow the Old Testament - and they're pretty good people. They DON'T discriminate against gay people for one, and they don't think their religion is right and the rest of 'em are wrong

That is an invalid blanket statement because I happen to personaly know 2 VERY homophobic Jewish guys. So that in itself, makes your statement completely faulse ;)

[Sassysback]

Cred obviously has not read the book of Revelations if he thinks Jesus is all about Peace and sweetness. :rolleyes:

[excon]

That is an invalid blanket statement because i happen to personaly know 2 VERY homophobic Jewish guys. So that in itself, makes your statement completely faulse ;)

Hello S:

So, you know TWO homophobic Jews out of 12 MILLION, therefore my statement is false. Scuse me, faulse.

Bwa, ha ha ha ha.

excon

[Sassysback]

Hello S:

So, you know TWO homophobic Jews out of 12 MILLION, therefore my statement is false. Scuse me, faulse.

Bwa, ha ha ha ha.

excon

Haha.. you said " (Jews) DON'T discriminate against gay people for one, and they don't think their religion is right and the rest of 'em are wrong."
So I just gave you two perfect examples of Jews who are homophobic therefore your statement is faulse. You may need to rephrase your statement. :rolleyes: