[talaniman]

The anguish of those suffering a terminal illness and debilitating pain have led some to ask for help in ending their lives and the pain. Most states frown on helping bring peace to the suffering and the most famous Dr Kevorkian finally went to jail for his part in ending the pain/suffering of those that contacted him. Should we not take into account that we cannot do for these people and help them die if they ask?

[ndx]

I don't think suicide is a crime. Taking someone else's life is a crime because it might not be their wish, but taking your own, and it being your own wish, I don't consider a crime. I guess that means helping someone else, is a crime, unless they actually want it. Which they do if they want to commit suisice.

No. No I don't consider it a crime. As long as they give you something to prove you didn't murder them before!

[educatedhorse_2005]

Yes it is a crime.
If you don't have the balls to do it yourself.
To bad so sad.
Where there is a will there is away.

[J_9]

Not always Josh.

I remember going through cancer. I told my hubby that if I could not do for myself please do for me.

It is hard to say until you have actually been there, and I was close.

So, to me, no it would not have been a crime. The agony was intense and I do not wish it on anyone.

[CaptainForest]

What if I am a vegetable?

I have stated in my will before hand I do not wish to live like that, I am kind of in tough waters then eh?

If I was a vegetable, I couldn't kill myself, despite the fact that I want to.

Therefore, assisted suicide should be allowed, but it must be evaluated on a case by case basis.

Perhaps even with a government board to review each file.

[J_9]

What if I am a vegetable?

I have stated in my will before hand I do not wish to live like that, I am kind of in tough waters then eh?

If I was a vegetable, I couldn't kill myself, despite the fact that I want to.

Therefore, assisted suicide should be allowed, but it must be evaluated on a case by case basis.

Perhaps even with a government board to review each file.

Those are great statements. At the time I was gong thruogh cancer I did not have a will. I do now. But at that time, I was 32, I thought I was too young to need one. I look back now and realize that we really do tend to be innocent in a lot of aspects during our youth.

I agree that it should be allowed on a case-by-case basis.

I also understand that this can be hard on a hopsital or nursing home, but being on both sides (a med/mal researcher and now a nursing student) it is something that most certainly should be considered.

[Nez]

Demonspeeding_2005

Yes it is a crime.
If you don't have the balls to do it yourself.
To bad so sad.
Where there is a will there is away


I knew someone who committed suicide,so as you say,"they did have the balls to do it themselves".

If I had a terminal illness,and was eventually to suffer agonising pain,after massive doses of morephene,I would,before my mind became confused,let it be known that I wanted to die.The downside to this,is that in the UK,only "brain-death" is considered good enough to switch-off a life-support machine,and only then after discussion with my next of kin.So even if my heart stopped beating after an over dose of drugs,I could in theory,be placed on a "machine" against my wishes.
Would I personally help someone,or other family member "die".It is difficult to answer,until the situation arises.
Is it a crime to help someone die? Only if you shoot them,knife them,or blow them up.To administer an over-dose of drugs must be awful.

[valinors_sorrow]

I don't have the usual stigma on suicde that others do. Part of my past included two attempts (obviously failed, lol and I am not inclined now, okay?) but these were genuine attempts and so I like to think I know a little of what its like.

In the US, a "living will" is the legal document that prevents prolonged life when you don't wish it. NO machines, feeding tubes or vegetable states for us thanks! We both have ones that were drawn up right after the Terry Schiavo case went national news, having been lax on it until then. This is different from a will.

As for checking out, I have thought about if I live past the point of quality in my life, that not eating or drinking will be the option - it would only take about two weeks max from what I can find out on it. That seems simple and do-able both... unless I am missing something here? I don't think burdening someone else with my demise is wise since the emotional culpability issues, apart from the illegality of it, are just too hefty.

I saw my mom die a horrible death from progressive systemic sclerosis (crudely put, you turn to cement from the inside out basically). She was on the verge of asking me to help when she slipped into a coma in her sleep. I have to say I was IMMENSELY relieved. She died ten days later in the hospital. While I don't think its wrong to end your life, I think others doing it for you needs to be considered very very very carefully. Maybe it all changes when you are right there in the moment but why ask another if you can do it yourself? Why wait until you are that helpless?

I think suicide in general needs to be reconsidered differently, not just for hospice patients, but then I think the whole mental health topic does too!

Good thread Talaniman.

[J_9]

Val, you are so right in your answer.

One of the things we have not considered would be the emotional well-being of the person we ask to do it. How will they be emotionally after they have "sent us on our way"? Would they be able to live a normal life?

Now, just pulling the plug is a different story. I know of many people who have had to pull the plug. In those instances they were relieved to see that their loved one was no longer suffering (although in most instances it is the healthy person that is actually doing the suffering.)

[ScottGem]

I saw my grandfather deteriorate to the point where his dignity and quality of life were gone. I would not wish that on anyone.

How can it be a crime to relieve a person of such suffering?

[orange]

I don't think it's a crime, either. The only way it would be a crime to me is if the dying person didn't have a choice in the matter... like, if they were automatically "eliminated" for not being healthy, as happened in Nazi Germany. But if they wanted to die, they should be allowed the choice to die with dignity.

Assisted suicide happens all the time. You just don't hear about it because people don't want to get in trouble, go to jail, etc. I've talked to many people who've helped family members... I think it will continue regardless of being legal or not.

[J_9]

Scott hit the nail on the head with his post. We have all been discussing health issues, but until he posted we never discussed dignity.

Many people are proud people and do not want anyone to see them in adult diapers and the like. Dignity should play a major factor in our decisions.

Thank you for sharing Scott. I am sure that was particularly hard time in your life.

I just had to spread some more around.

[ScottGem]

Thank you for sharing Scott. I am sure that was particularly hard time in your life.

I was in my teens at the time, but it impressed me greatly and made me decide I never want to go through that. I think when my father died, it may have been best way that could happen. He suffered a stroke and never regained consciousness and died 3 days later. That was long enough for us to get used to the idea but not too long for either him or us to suffer.

[educatedhorse_2005]

Janine
I know you survived cancer. Did you learn anything from it. If you would have ended it you wouldn't be here today.

Scott
Did you learn anything from watching your grandfather die. Maybe he had one last gift to give. You now know that you don't want to go like that.

I have seen my fair share of death. Suicides, Car wrecks, overdoses and stuff like that.

For the most part suicides are harder on the people left behind.

[talaniman]

If you can't help some one die with dignity what alternatives are there?

[ScottGem]

Janine
I know you survived cancer. Did you learn anything from it. If you would have ended it you wouldn't be here today.

Scott
Did you learn anything from watching your grandfather die. Maybe he had one last gift to give. You now know that you don't want to go like that.

I have seen my fair share of death. Suicides, Car wrecks, overdoses and stuff like that.

For the most part suicides are harder on the people left behind.

First, your question to Janine may not be applicable. You have no idea at what level or what conditions she had to deal with.

Second, Yes I did learn a lesson from my grandfather's death. The lesson was that he should not have had to endure what he did. Does that make the manner of his death valuable to me? NO! I would much rather have learned that lesson without him having to go through what he did. I would rather NOT have learned the lesson at all, then have him go through what he did.

[orange]

My biological mother died of breast cancer that had metasized to the liver and other organs. It was a slow, painful, horrible death, with no hope of cure or remission. I watched her die in palliative care, and all I learned was that cancer is an awful disease and that we need more research funding for a cure. And I decided that if I'm ever in that position myself that I want to die quickly.

[J_9]

Sorry this is long, but it is from someone who has been on the brink of assisted suicide.

Scott, I have to thank you for stepping in. Here is the story in a nutshell. I enjoy sharing my story in hopes that I save other lives.

I had, and survived stage three breast cancer, localized in the milk ducts. It had not yet metastisized, I was a lucky one. In the hospital that I had my bilateral mastectomy in it was customary for breast cancer survivors to visit patients who had mastectomies and bring angel pins (guardian angels). Sue was the lady who visited me.

She was considered cured as she had been “out” five years. This means that she had a clean bill of health five years after mastectomy and chemo.

After my final chemo treatment which was 6 months later, I was notified that Sue's cancer had returned. Breast cancer usually returns in only 5 different organs, 2 of which are the brain and bone. Well, Sue's cancer had reached both. Bear with me here as I tend to get a little teary eyed remembering this part, but it is all cathartic.

It was during my final chemo treatment, I had very little hair, (people who did not know of my cancer were quick to make fun of me, yes, adults out in the open in front of what was then my 4 year old daughter). So, back to the story. At my final chemo treatment the doctor's office gave me a boquet of flowers to celebrate. As I was walking out I saw Sue. She was gaunt, tired and bruised all over. She could not walk on her own, she had open sores, and you could tell that she had given up hope. If anyone has ever seen it, you know when someone knows it is time to go.

It was at that point that I discussed with my husband that if I ever got that far I did not want to linger a long and painful death as Sue was doing. Raechell was only 4 for heavens sake. I did not want her to watch this. I wanted my family to be able to say goodbye gracefully. This is hard folks, so bear with me, I am laying it all out for you so you know where I come from. I give speeches in October, Breast Cancer Awareness Month, but that is to people I DON'T know, and I feel I know you all. BTW Sue did die a very slow and painful death. I mourn her loss every November.

Okay, so I did not want my beautiful young child to remember a life full of pain and torture. I wanted her to remember a young healthy loving mother. Not a shell ravaged by the effects of a deadly disease.

I asked my husband to help me die with dignity if ever I were to succumb to such a horror. He agreed that if that time were ever to come that he would want me to pass gracefully, but there was no easy answer, as it would affect him and Raechell for the rest of their lives.

Well, I am now here to tell you that the time never came. I am now 11 years free of cancer and am trying to help others in the same way that my nurses helped me.

Is assisted suicide a crime? Take it from someone who as been close to the brink. No, it is not murder, it is helping others pass over with their dignity intact.

P.S. Please I do not want anyone to feel sorry for me, I want to celebrate every day that I have on this earth. And I cherish every person I meet, whether in person or online.

If I help just one person, then my job is done!

[valinors_sorrow]

I'm with Chava in that I think it occurs "quietly" behind closed doors as it should for now. I also see pretty compelling evidence that the collective medical community, the insurance industry and the vast legal system, at least in this country, are a loooooooooong way from understanding something as intensely personal and as contrary to many religions as this is... just look at the storm Terry's situation made. Although I sympathsized with him, I am also mindful that it was very hard for a good many people to see the enormous kindness he was extending to her. There are still a great many people who view suicide of any kind as a sin. And having been in the system for attempted suicide, I can tell you much enlightenment is needed there too. So those who sound off on this topic might want to consider that words written here endure and are able to be used as evidence down the road... maybe its better to be less direct about it, for now?

Just a concerned thought, a gentle caution for choosing words carefully.

[ScottGem]

I now you must think me barbaic or something.

But god said it is a sin to commit suicide.
That is also what I believe.

I have been through a lot of stuff in my life.
Cancers heart attacks suicides.

My feelings about it are god will not give you anything you can't handle.

If you commit suicide. You might be missing out on something god had intended for you.

No I don't think you barbaric, but I do think you lack somewhat in compassion.

So your position is that God would put you through the pain and suffering of a terminal illness because he has some grand plan for you? Therefore, it would be an affront to him to take your own life.

I'm not sure if you see the paradox here. If you believe in a god that controls things to the extent that he has intentions for you, then that same god would control things enough to prevent you from committing suicide in the first place.