[Starman]

Not all the Jews for Jesus and the Messianics are "real" Jews though... a lot of them are gentiles posing as Jews to win converts. I find both groups highly questionable for that reason. I prefer the Jews for Judaism, a counter-missionary group, of course! :p

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Judaism

Anyways I don't want to start an off-topic discussion here... I just think you need to realize that most Jews who practice Judaism have a very low opinion of the organizations you mentioned, and consider them a threat to our culture, heritage, faith... to our people in general. If you want me to explain more about why we don't like these groups, I will continue if you start a new thread. But this thread was supposed to be about cults! :p

I was unaware of this enmity between the two groups.
So you consider the Messianic Jews a cult?

[orange]

Basically, I consider them dishonest. They claim to be Jews, have churches that look like temples or synagogues, call their leaders "Rabbis" when they have never been to a Rabbinical yeshiva, and generally don't "admit" to being Christians until you've talked with them for a while. Personally I find that underhanded. When there was a large influx of Russian Jewish immigrants to Canada, the Messianics invited them to their "synagogues". These Jews had never been to a real synagogue, having been raised with communism, and since they also didn't speak English, they didn't know any better. That was when the Jews for Judaism was formed, to counteract what most Jews considered to be deception.

Personally I have a lot more respect for Christians who simply come out and say they are Christians. If you want to convert me to Christianity, say so! Don't pretend to be practicing Judaism, when really you are a Christian. The nuns at my boarding school would have never done something like that to me... I KNEW they were Christians. They are up front. Actually I know a lot of Christians, including a Jewish person who converted to Christianity, who also don't think much of the Messianics.

And no I don't consider them a cult... I do believe though, as the Jews for Judaism website says, that they use some cult-like tactics. From personal experience I've had with them on several occasions, I know this is true. For example, they had Passover seders on campus when I was in university, but didn't say they were Christians until after I and my Jewish friends had unsuspectingly participated in the whole seder, which we thought was a real Jewish seder. Stuff like that. Like I said in an earlier post, I consider groups like the Moonies and Krishna Consciousness to be cults. But while they're not a cult, I do think the Messianic groups have a rather skewed sense of integrity...

Anyway I've said all I wanted to say here. I feel bad for letting this thread get off topic... back to cults! :)

[CaptainForest]

Basically, I consider them dishonest. They claim to be Jews, have churches that look like temples or synagogues, call their leaders "Rabbis" when they have never been to a Rabbinical yeshiva, and generally don't "admit" to being Christians until you've talked with them for a while. Personally I find that underhanded. When there was a large influx of Russian Jewish immigrants to Canada, the Messianics invited them to their "synagogues". These Jews had never been to a real synagogue, having been raised with communism, and since they also didn't speak English, they didn't know any better. That was when the Jews for Judaism was formed, to counteract what most Jews considered to be deception.

Personally I have a lot more respect for Christians who simply come out and say they are Christians. If you want to convert me to Christianity, say so! Don't pretend to be practicing Judaism, when really you are a Christian. The nuns at my boarding school would have never done something like that to me... I KNEW they were Christians. They are up front. Actually I know a lot of Christians, including a Jewish person who converted to Christianity, who also don't think much of the Messianics.

And no I don't consider them a cult... I do believe though, as the Jews for Judaism website says, that they use some cult-like tactics. From personal experience I've had with them on several occasions, I know this is true. For example, they had Passover seders on campus when I was in university, but didn't say they were Christians until after I and my Jewish friends had unsuspectingly participated in the whole seder, which we thought was a real Jewish seder. Stuff like that. Like I said in an earlier post, I consider groups like the Moonies and Krishna Consciousness to be cults. But while they're not a cult, I do think the Messianic groups have a rather skewed sense of integrity...

Anyways I've said all I wanted to say here. I feel bad for letting this thread get off topic... back to cults! :)

All I wanted to do was post a comment that said "Well Said". Instead, I get the, pass more rep. around message.

[valinors_sorrow]

"...if you believe in it, it is a religion or perhaps 'the' religion;
and if you do not care one way or another about it, it is a sect;
but if you fear and hate it, it is a cult." Leo Pfeffer. A humorous quotation, but one that is uncomfortably close to reality.

I like the thorough airing out given to the definition of cult on this site:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cults.htm

I have also browsed through the bookcase full of anti-AA books at Barnes and Noble. Many of those books accuse AA of being a cult. One in particular manged to validate how the organzation matched some 12 of 17 points of a cult. Again though, I would caution anyone to look at a bigger picture before making cult claims, lest a personal slant be in the mix. There is a profound difference between good debate and symmantics games!

[talaniman]

When you say cult my mind goes to Charles Manson and the dude in WACO or Jim Jones, people who I consider to be way out of the box. As Orange pointed out they used the people they recruited for their own agenda and the result was wholesale death and destruction. In my opinion there are a lot of people who give up their free will to follow some a-hole who sees himself as some kind of god (REALLY HE"S A NUT). These people are what make him dangerous as they are willing to die or kill at his command! :cool: :confused:

[J_9]

CULT

C-reative
U-nified
L-eaders of
T-errorism

[educatedhorse_2005]

I believe anything doesn't allow freedom of choice is a cult

[valinors_sorrow]

I believe anything doesn't allow freedom of choice is a cult

Hmmm well in that case... include my biological family as a cult!

I was born into it with no choice, was forced to stay until I was old enough to escape it, was "scripted" while there as to what to say, think and feel and often regulated in a very heavy handed way as to what I could do. :eek:

[educatedhorse_2005]

I always had a choice in my family mom and dads way or the belt

Sometimes I took the belt

[orange]

I believe anything doesn't allow freedom of choice is a cult

YES that's a very good point. Freedom of choice is very important in a religious organization. I think most religions teach that G-d gave us free will, so what's the point of having it if religious leaders don't let us use it??

Hmmm well in that case ... include my biological family as a cult!

LOL. Sorry, I know it wasn't meant to be funny, but that is such a true statement that it's almost humorous! Children often seem to have none or very little rights, even if they are being neglected or abused. And they are often unable to defend themselves, only making matters worse.

[Starman]

So God allows us all behavior? I think that is wishful thinking.


Christianity and Judaism as well as Islam portray God as demanding certain behavior or else we suffer the consequences which can be as serious as death itself. The freedom given us was a freedom to be exercised within the parameters of God's laws. Complete freedom would lead to anarchy and the abuse of the rights of the weak by the strong. So if we are to use lack of total freedom as a criterion for classifying a cult we would have to include the three religions I just mentioned and many others as well which deamand that a worshipper behave himself or else.

[orange]

So God allows us all behavior? I think that is wishful thinking.

I don't think G-d condones all behaviours, obviously not, otherwise there wouldn't be sin. But He does give people the freedom to decide whether they want to obey His laws or not. He doesn't force it upon people. That's what free will is.

A religion would be a cult IMO if it forced people to do things against their will. Being forced is not faith-based, it's fear-based. Could you really say that you were doing something because of faith if you did it only because someone was pointing a gun to your head?

[educatedhorse_2005]

Just remember that he does allow us are own free choices.
But someday you will have to answer for your transgressions

[shunned]

My definition is: An interest followed with exaggerated zeal

[Morganite]

What religions do you believe are cults and why

All religions are Cults.

Although in the parlance of some religionists it has had a negative and pejorative definition to it as a religion or religious sect considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader, in standard English the word cult is quite innocuous and refers to any system of belief or worship.



M:)RGANITE

[talaniman]

All religions are Cults

Just because man put a negative connotation on a word to throw doubt on what another group is doing, does not mean that they are any better than any other. With all the groups spinning off the original you need a score card to tell the players and know the differences between them. Every time some one gets his nose in a snit -BAM-go across the street and start your own group and dog out the one you just left! Can you imagine GOD scratching his head and saying -What are those humans doing now?

[Morganite]

He is always complaining to me about them. But he is loving, kind, and just, and His will be the final word when He declares it to be harvest time. In the meantime, He expects us to treat each other right even when we think the other is wrong.


M:)RGANITE

The religion of ancient Israel, the forerunner of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, was cultic. The word 'cult' has been hijacked, like many words and a new meaning imposed on a perfectly good word. Those who use 'cult' as a pejorative have defined it so tightly that it can mean any religion or religious movement with which they, personally, disagree. This has not only bvecome a c onvenient shorthand tag with which to damn anyone and their faith without having to explain one'sself, but it becomes an engine of war, much as the word 'witch' was used in less enlightened times.

It is a reversal of understanding to designate certain movements as cultic, meaning thereby to damn them, and to characterise their adherents as cultic. It flies in the face of all that is good about religious faiths and is a barrier to understanding and friendship between people.

There have been sveeral excellent studies done on religious groups that marginalise and condemn to the trash can of religious consideration other groups whose teachings differ from theirs.

In each case, persecuting groupa are shown to be pathalogically disturbed with contention at their core and heart. A very disturbing revelation. If I remember coreectly, Jesus said, when told by his foloowres that there were some preaching his message who were not of their band,

"Leave them alone, dammit! Those who are not against me are for me!"

Why would anyone - especially one who professes to be religious - want to make life hard for others?


M:mad:RGANITE

Just remember that he does allow us are own free choices.
But someday you will have to answer for your transgressions

That is a very sensible posiiton to hold. Interfering in what others do is meddlesome and contentious. It's a matter of beams and specks.


M

[31pumpkin]

Sometimes I see the term "cults" used closely with "false religions".
All cults and false religions can be traced back to a man who lived his life in rebellion to God and created the cult or false religion out of his imagination. I am using the derogatory definition in that case. One def. that states a cult is a religious sect generally considered to be extremist or bogus. Can't forget that bogus one either.

Scientology is an example of a cult. I could give examples of more however, I think the major interest when looking at a cult would be to see if it is harmful or helpful to its participants and for society in general. :)

[DrJ]

"Leave them alone, dammit! Those who are not against me are for me!"

Well, That's an interesting quote...

Anyway, yes, yes... words get used in all sorts of different ways and the meanings get changed around... but the English word "cult" comes from the French "culte," which came from the Latin word "cultus" (care and adoration), which came from the Latin word "colere" (to cultivate). So us deriving what we say are the true meanings, our understandings, or anything else for this word is absurd.

No one knows what a false religion is... no one!

[valinors_sorrow]

If we really are a cult, can we have our first sacrafice now? I mean...I aint volunteering or nuthin...we could draw straws or sumpthin...ya know.

I propose a big bonfire (only not in my yard, okay? :eek: - see "bad neighbor" thread in etiquette for details! ) whereby we sacrifice all our collective prejudices, ignorances, hatreds and terrors in the flames.

Then we can all join the cult called the "human race" and live peacefully therefter. :)

The joining of hands and the singing of Kumbaya is optional, of course :p