[classyT]

I have neighbors all around me that are Christians... and we all go to the same Church. There was a woman that lived right next to me.. she was a baby Christian that just got saved and she had been living with a man for 20 years. Ok, she was excited and really wanted to get married and live according to the Bible. He would have none of it. She wouldn't leave him. She decided to join our Chior and she loved it. Well, another neighbor didn't approve she was in the Chior and she felt her lifestyle was WRONG and therefore she shouldn't be up in front of the church leading worship.. so she went to the Pastors wives and told the story. Well the baby Christain neighbor was no longer welcome to be in the Chior she was DEVASTATED and therefore left the church.

Ok... was that the correct way to handle the situation. According to 1 Corinthians 5 we are to have disciplne. Was our Pastor right? It was done gently... and she was welcome to still come to the Church but I think she was too hurt.

[starbuck8]

This is the very reason I no longer attend church. I'm feel very badly for your friend. This could quite likely have ill effects on her beliefs. The church is disallowing her to worship and participate. Whatever happened to "Love Thy Neighbor As Thyself?" I really think the Pastor did the wrong thing. They are suppose to be there to teach and give their sermons. Not to judge. I hope your friend finds a church that will accept her, and she can feel comfortable.

[classyT]

This is the very reason I no longer attend church. I'm feel very badly for your friend. This could quite likely have ill effects on her beliefs. The church is disallowing her to worship and participate. Whatever happened to "Love Thy Neighbor As Thyself?" I really think the Pastor did the wrong thing. They are suppose to be there to teach and give their sermons. Not to judge. I hope your friend finds a church that will accept her, and she can feel comfortable.

Yes, I fear she was hurt deeply and I wish somehow I could have prevented it. According to the Bible the local church is suppose to discipline but I think it needs to be done wisely. I have talked to Christians that believe she should have been left alone and to those that think it was the right call.

Actually, I heard a rumor that she is attending a new church and has actually gotten her partner there too. So that is the up swing to the story.

[starbuck8]

Well, I am no expert in this area, but I really think there is some misinterpretation from Bible verses and quotes. I hope the rumour is true, and she will be accepted as an individual in the new church.

I stopped going entirely, because of all of the misinterpretations, and the politics. I don't feel I need to be in a man made building in order to believe in God, and worship him in my own way. God, as are my beliefs, created this world, and what better way to feel close to God, than to be outdoors looking at his creation, and talk to him there. :)

[classyT]

Well in all honesty I have had my feeling hurt or have been snubbed from time time myself. I do hope you eventually find a place you can go... not so much because you can't feel close to God elsewhere but for encouragement and fellowship.. there are bad eggs everywhere including the church.

[starbuck8]

Well I grew up in an VERY religious family. I was always told that if I didn't attend church, that I would go to hell. No if's ands, or buts. I was taught that so many things were sins. Dancing, going to the movie theater, playing a game of cards, living out of wedlock, and the list goes on. The evangelical and baptist church's we went to supported some of these beliefs. When I grew older, and knew better, I still went to church. It always seemed to be more about status and so on, and still is, in the churches I've attended.

I made my decision then, to just believe in what I did, and leave the church. I'm actually happy with my decision. I don't need to go to church and be judged on... maybe what I wear that day, or hear the whispers of other church members on how much more they gave in offering than I might have been able to afford that day, or the gossip that went on, that the congregation took as truth! So I opted out of that. I have enough stress in my daily life. I sure don't need it in church! I also don't need the fire and brimstone speech, every time someone who doesn't know me, thinks they do, and makes it their decision that I am going to hell.

I know there are people like this everywhere, but some of these people that claim to know God and the Bible passages, need to use them all. I don't believe they should be able to pull out one verse from the Bible, and use that, if they are not going to adhere to the others.

I'm sorry that you've been snubbed, and had your feelings hurt. I know how that feels. I won't attend church because of the reasons I mentioned, and many more, but I'm sure God will be forgiving of my reasons.

I see God in many things I see everyday, so I'm sure he will understand. I like to feel like a God loving person, and not a God fearing person.

[classyT]

NO WHERE in the Bible is not going to church going to keep anyone from heaven, my friend.

I too was raised in a very legallistic church... I still can get a legallistic mind set myself if I don't watch it.. it was deeply ingrated into me.

Hey, I was ousted out of the church I went to when I was 20 for having sex outside of marriage. They received me back but it was mortifiying.. And the only reason they knew was because I was so afraid if I didn't tell, the Lord would take me... really!

Anyway, I would like to encourage you to find Joel Osteen on TV if you can.. he is such an encourager... I think he can feed you and lift you up too!

[cogs]

so the people up front are the sinless ones.
also, they were common law married.
I guess her singing to god was full of sin.
I suppose to be a good christian, we should root out those who sin from our church. (sarcasm)

she should have been nurtured to follow god more and more. The tattle-tell should have loved her neighbor. She should have looked for ways to love them, and pray for them.

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.

[Fr_Chuck]

One has to know that living in life styles outside of God's will is a sin, And this lady knew after becoming a christian that living together was wrong and a sin. She wanted to get married, but the man for some reason would not. This left the lady a choice, to live in sin that she was aware of and appeared to be convicted in her heart, or to separate an chose God's will or continue to live in a way of life she knew was wrong.

She made her choice. so at this point, I don't see a choir as a position of leadership, many even hire out side people who are not even members to sign or play for the church. You may have a Anglican playing organ in a Lutheran church as a job,

so I don't see being in the choir, but I would object to them being a Sunday School Teacher, some lay leadership position in the church,

[classyT]

Cogs and Fr_Chuck,

You both make good points... it was a difficult situation and I think it required more wisdom in dealing with it than was given.

[MoonlitWaves]

Oh man, see things like this irritate me! Instead of this new Christian being encouraged to stay and grow in a church she was hurt by the very members who should be there for her.

Yes, we all know, and so did your friend, that she is living in sin. But here's the thing... God asks us to come as we are for salvation. He does not ask us to clean up first. Also some things take time to work out. Let's take heavily addicted alcoholics for example. I am sure there are some who upon salvation immediately quit getting drunk. As we all know God can work wonders with even the toughest of situatons. But who are we to say that this is the way it works every time. Maybe it will take some time for a newly saved alcoholic to stop getting drunk daily.

My point... Just because the newly saved woman got saved doesn't mean her boyfriend's heart changed too. He walks in his own shoes. The church should have remembered this and should have definitely given this woman time to talk with her boyfriend and to help him realize the sin they were living in. It is obvious he did/does not care that they are living in sin. God is patient with even the most mature Christians when we sin daily. Why should infant Christians be held under different standards. They have to grow strong in Christ just like the rest of us.

With that said... I completely agree with Fr_Chuck when it comes to people holding positions in church such as teaching. It would definitely be wrong for the church to allow someone who intentionally lives in a continuous sin to hold a position in the church. But we are talking about praising God here. Though being a choir member could be considered a position in the church, it is not a leadership position of any kind. Singing is about praising God, and ALL people have the right to do this. Just because this woman was having a difficulty with her boyfriend doesn't mean she shouldn't be allowed to praise God for what He does for her.

I am glad she found a new church... she needed to. That one was definitely not the one for her. I mean no offense in that ClassyT, I can tell your heart is definitely in Christ. But that's why there are so many different churches and so many different pastors.

It's like any kind of learning you do. Not every method of teaching, not every method of learning is the same for everyone. Some people need less and some need more. Sometimes a teacher just does not do the job for one, but works well for another.

Church is no different. Sometimes a preacher just doesn't do the job for one, but is great for the ones there. So a person goes to another church until they find the one that reaches them in the way they need. If the same thing worked for everyone then God wouldn't call on so many to preach... so much so that there is a church on every corner. Therefore, it was great that she left and found a place that will help her grow in Christ and keep her spiritual fire burning.

[classyT]

Moonlitwaves,

First, no offense taken AT ALL! :) and I agree with you... I do!

You know, I bring all this up because I have such a guilty conscience... I am friends with the one that spilled the beans and I tried to warn the other one but she wouldn't listen. I knew what would happen. If I could do things differntly, I would have condemned the one that wanted to bring this out... and I didn't. All I did was warn the baby Christain. Oh well live and learn!

[starbuck8]

I'm just curious classyT. How do both of these women treat you now, and how have your friendships been affected because of this. Does this make you feel differently towards your Pastor, or the congregation?

Don't feel guilt for this. It was out of your hands. The new church might be just what your friend needed. I live in a small city, where there isn't a church on every corner, so I do what I think is right for me, in my situation. It's a matter of everyone knowing everyone else's business sometimes, and that extends further than the church.

[smearcase]

I would not remain a member of a church where people were judged in this way but maybe the church has different rules than my church does.
Old busy bodies have chased more people away from churches than the good ones can bring in. Its supposed to be God's church.

[DrJ]

This is the very problem with Religion and Church these days.

Judge not, lest ye be judged? OR lest a choir member is living with a man out of wedlock.

Isn't that how that verse goes?

Or what about that commandment? Isn't it something like:

Love thy neighbor as thyself... unless thy neighbor does not live in accordance to the Bible... in which case, said neighbor should be thrown from the church choir.

[revdrgade]

By whose LAW were they not married?

Even the state would say that they were "common law" married. And where does God define "married" outside of leaving father and mother and clinging to one's spouse?

It all sounds like a bit of legalism which those who don't quite yet understand the love of God even for themselves want to impose on another "lesser" person.

The true church is better seen as The Hospital of the Holy Spirit for the sick of soul... or a nursery for those who are still able to receive only the milk of God's word... or an orphanage for those who need God's guidance as they grow up in Him, etc. etc.

Those who say that this woman was "living in sin" seem to be those who are ready to pick up "the first stone".

CHURCH DISCIPLINE is for the those who rebel against God's explicit commandments and arragantly continue even though they have been shown by God's word that they are living spiritually dangerously (to their own harm). The love we MUST have to administer discipline is we do what is best alslo for the one being disicplined.

2 Thess 3:14-15

14 If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not look on him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
RSV

OTHERWISE:

Rom 14:4
4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
NIV

[classyT]

I'm just curious classyT. How do both of these women treat you now, and how have your friendships been affected because of this. Does this make you feel differently towards your Pastor, or the congregation?

Don't feel guilt for this. It was out of your hands. The new church might be just what your friend needed. I live in a small city, where there isn't a church on every corner, so I do what I think is right for me, in my situation. It's a matter of everyone knowing everyone elses business sometimes, and that extends further than the church.

Well I was pretty close with the one that spilled the beans. But since this has happened I have seen her do this over and over in different ways and I don't hang with her like I used to. I keep my distance. We are friendly but not close.

The other one moved and she held some resentments even with me because I was friends with the other. She really never forgave the tattetale and she held me somewhat responsible... like I said.. I tried to warn her that if it came out she could be ousted. But I never told her who was going to squeal. I was in the middle. I feel badly about the entire thing.

NO, it doesn't make me feel differently about the Pastor. I KNEW what he was like ( one reason I wanted to warn her) I still go there.. I think they try to follow the word and I do believe in discipline in the church for certain reasons a positions but every single circumstance is different and needs wisdom.

[classyT]

revdrgade,

I see your points. I do believe in discipline but this was out of line I think.

[wildandblue]

Yes it was handled badly, but maybe it's just that group of people, holier than thou type bunch?
Normally in the evangelizing sort of churches a new convert isn't just left to sink or swim, they are assigned spiritual "godparents" or more mature Christians as advisors. Apparently she had none.
Also isn't there something about if a believer has an unbelieving husband, she should not leave him but try to set a Christian example for him, as many have been won without a word to the faith through the conduct of their wives.
But also a new convert can get puffed up with pride as well and not take correction if that was what these other members meant to do. But they just sound like busybodies really, to me.

[starbuck8]

revdrgade,

I see your points. I do believe in discipline but this was out of line i think.

I agree. If it was not for the this type of discipline, among other things, and how some take the power upon themselves, to decide or interperate the laws of the church, I may have continued being a church member. Is this what God would have wanted in the churches? To exclude someone from worshiping because of what they believe to be a sin? It sure made me leave the church, and I will not go back, but that doesn't change my beliefs, just where I choose to go to believe in what I do.