[steveb174]

Hearing water running with no water source being on, we suspected a leak, so I checked the meter and indeed it was running even with all faucets, toilets, etc... turned off. My wife said she thought our water heater had been running constantly, so I shut off the incoming water to the water heater. The meter stopped. This indicates to me that the leak is somewhere after the water comes into the heater, is heated, then goes somewhere even when all faucets, etc... are off. The only things I know that get hot water on demand, without a faucet being opened are the washing machine and dishwasher, but I see no leaks in either of them. So, how do I find this leak? I have checked the pressure relief and it's not leaking there. It is not leaking out of the water heater, I have a drip pan which is dry and there are no leaks in the incoming or outgoing pipes. Where can this water be going and how do I find and fix the leak? Any idea?

Steve

[ballengerb1]

Steve, are you on a slab or a basement? If slab do any pipes travel under the floor?

[steveb174]

I'm on a slab, and I believe that pipes do go under the slab. The water heater is in a laundry closet and the outlet pipe from it goes into a nearby wall. From there hot water has to travel to the opposite side of the house, but I have never seen a water pipe in my attic, so they must go under the slab. I assume you're thinking that may be where the leak is, but in order for that to happen wouldn't something have to be calling for hot water, or could the leak itself cause the flow?

[massplumber2008]

Steve...

When a leak occurs it usually leaks at a constant rate because the pipes are under between 45-70 PSI, so, although you can't see it the pipe is leaking underground... even when no hot water is called for. You already confirmed this by fact that the meter runs even when no fixtures are calling for water.

Check where the hot water pipes come out of the floor if you can. Then check around for all the obvious stuff... lift a tile, remove a baseboard or two, etc... check whatever you can to try to locate this. You might also consider opening the wall near the water heater as hot water pipes may be separated behind the wall in that room and then run as individual lines underground. This would be great as you could isolate each line and determine which line is leaking!

Otherwise, you may need to find a company that locates leaks under slab... call a local plumbing inspector and see if he knows of any local companies that can help with this.

Check out all the obvious stuff first... since hot water and since pipe probably not too deep you may be able to feel a warm spot in the floor...

Let us know how you do as you go...

MARK

[mygirlsdad77]

Curious to see what you find. Once you locate the leak, we can help you fix it.

[steveb174]

I think the most obvious things have been checked. I would assume that if the leak was occurring where the pipes come out of the floor that I would see water along the slab outside, or along the walls and carpeting inside. We've had some plumbing leaks in the past where the leak was in a wall, but the resulting water ran along the slab and could be seen outside (we can see the top of the slab where it meets the brick, all the way around the house), or it soaked the carpeting in the area of the leak. The fact that I see no evidence of any water anywhere leads me to believe the leak must be in the ground and the water is being absorbed by the ground. The leak is reasonably substantial. I turned off the water heater, checked the meter and it was stopped dead. Then I turned the heater back on and went immediately to the meter and it had already registered half a gallon. I guess for now I'm going to turn of the inlet to the water heater except when I need it on to keep from pumping hot water into the ground.

Thanks for the answers. I think I'm going to need a professional on this one, which I suspect will be pricey to do repairs under the slab.

[massplumber2008]

Steve..

Find a locator company... have them locate and then decide if you want to fix it. We can help with the fix if you can rent a jackhammer and don't mind patching the floor!

Let us know!

[steveb174]

One other question about this... can I have someone look at this in about a month when I return from vacation, or is it serious enough that it needs to be fixed now? I checked the usage on the meter with everything shut off except the water heater, and it seems it's losing about a gallon every 10 minutes or 6 gallons an hour. Will the ground absorb that much water, or will it create foundation problems if not repaired quickly. Of course I don't really know how long it's already been leaking. Water bills don't show much since it's been hot and recent bills reflect extra watering of the lawn. Thanks.

Steve

[ballengerb1]

Steve if you are going to be gone for a month you would need to shut the water off at the main. You're looking at over 4000 gallons leaking and that is if the leak does not get worse, unlikely. If the leak is under the slab youir not only waste water but it is carving its own tunnel system under the slab not just soaking in.

[mygirlsdad77]

Listen to ballengerb. You need to shut off your water supply to the house, or get this fixed before you leave on vacation. You could also just shut off the hot water supply since your leak is on the hot water side. But it is always a good idea to shut the whole house down when on extended leave. Have fun on your trip. Where are you going?

[Milo Dolezal]

Tom will love this post ! Whaaaat ? Copper under ground?? And leaking?? :D:D

Seriously, you probably have mess on your hands - something we deal with very often. You have to deal with in timely manner or constant pressure leak will undermine your house, and house my sag. Then you will have real problem on your hands !

Call Leak Detecting Co.. They will locate the leak for you. In 50% of cases, we can reroute the line overhead w/o cutting up your slab. But to determine if you are so lucky, you will probably need somebody to locate the manifolds in your walls and determine which branch is the one that leaks and how many fixtures are serviced by this loop.

[steveb174]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I guess I didn't fully explain, I won't be gone a month, I had about two weeks before a trip which would last a week, then by the time I got back and organized I guessed it would be a month.

Due to cold temperatures here in North Texas, they don't generally put water pipes in attics as they do freeze. I wanted to get this fixed and called a plumbing company and leak detection outfit. After listening to both, I decided to go with the plumbing company. They used heat sensing and some kind of stethescope style thing with long tubes and bell looking listening devices to find the leak. Unfortunately, it was under my living room.

After jackhammering to the leak, it was right up against a concrete beam, so they could not access one end of the pipe to patch it. They dug another hole on the other side of the beam and channelled through the top of the beam and rerouted over the beam then poured the concrete back over after testing everything and checking the meter for additional leaks. Fortunately there weren't any more. That one cost me $2800, but I watched most of the work and I definitely could not have done this myself.

Insurance won't cover either as the leak was caused by expanding and contracting clay, which caused the beam to crush the pipe. This is a very common situation in this area.

One thing I will advise for anyone who has a problem requiring jackhammering into your foundation... DO NOT under any circumstances believe anyone who tells you this will not be too much of a mess! These guys were going to throw plastic over the furniture within 5feet of the work site and that's about all they planned. My wife insisted on having everything covered and all the windows and doorways and openings to any other room covered, and even with all that the concrete dust got pretty much everywhere in the house. Had we gone with only what they were going to do I would have probably had to replace thousands of dollars in furniture that would have gotten ruined with concrete dust. The living room itself looked like something exploded in it, concrete dust very heavy. My leak got fixed, but the plumbing company was not properly equipped to contain the dust or to properly clean up the mess. I'm pretty unhappy with that. Personally, for you plumbing guys, I think if you take a job, the property should be left pretty much the way you found it. I understand that plumbers would not expect to re-install carpeting and knew that in advance, but these guys bailed on me without really cleaning up much of anything, other than offering to take down the plastic. What they did clean up, around the work area, they did with brooms, which just stirred up more dust. They said they didn't have room on their trucks for a vacuum. My opinion, if you don't have room on the truck for what you need to do the job right, don't take the job.

Anyway, thanks again for all who helped with advice.

[massplumber2008]

Thanks for the update Steve.

Glad to hear you protected your furniture. Meet all kinds and when it comes to your home... listen to yourself!

Thanks again...

MARK

[mygirlsdad77]

Besides covering everything and containing the dust to the work area, we wet the concrete while jackhammering and keep it wet. This reduces the dust significantly. Sounds like they didn't do this.

Im glad you got your problem fixed.

[speedball1]

Milo Dolezal
Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: So. California
Posts: 968
Tom will love this post ! Whaaaat ? Copper under ground?? And leaking??

Here in Flordia, (unlike your code ) we have options. We're a bit more filexible over here then you guys. We were given the choice. If your water pipes sprung a leak, where would you like the water to pour out? From overhead pipes through the ceiling tiles onto your furniture and carpet or under the slab into the dirt?
Gee Milo! I don't know why but nobody chose to run overhead piping! Guess they never heard how superior UPC was. Cheers and giggles, Tom