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Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Criado

How come Jesus said that the one sent is not greater than one who sent (John 13:16).

The one sent IS the one who is sent.

Maybe you meant:

John 13:16
16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.
NKJV

This does not take away from their equality.

Kindly reconcile with your claim that they are equal. Where can we find that Bible said that They are equal?

I could write a book on it simply from scripture, and there have been books written addressing this point. But here are a couple of quotes for you:

Heb 1:8
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
NKJV

God calls Jesus God, and jesus claimed equality with God the Father.

Phil 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
NKJV

Criado · Mar 8, 2009, 03:45 PM

The one sent IS the one who is sent.

No; I am positive. It's the one sent is not greater than one who sent (John 13:16).

This does not take away from their equality.

I don't know what "greater than" means to you. Is it not inequality?

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

If Father is the SAME as Jesus, how can God be simultaneously not claiming and claiming equality to Himself at the same time?

If Father is the same as Jesus, how can he be simultaneously greater and not greater than Himself?

It doesn't make sense.

Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Criado

If Father is the SAME as Jesus, how can God be simultaneously not claiming and claiming equality to Himself at the same time?

Huh? Where did God not claim equality to Himself?

arcura · Mar 8, 2009, 04:04 PM

Criado,
Jesus said it... John 10: 30. "I and the Father are one."
That means equal and since The Hply Spirit eminates from the Father and the Son The holy Spirit is equal.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Criado · Mar 8, 2009, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

huh? Where did God not claim equality to Himself?

Just to refresh you; you said: God calls Jesus God, and jesus claimed equality with God the Father.

But since Jesus said "My Father is greater that I" this will appear that God is NOT claiming equality to Himself. This is tantamount of saying: "I am greater than myself; yet I am not greater than myself".

Criado · Mar 8, 2009, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

Criado,
Jesus said it....John 10: 30. "I and the Father are one."
That means equal and since The Hply Spirit eminates from the Father and the Son The holy Spirit is equal.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Sorry Fred but I think you are jumping into conclusion.

Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Criado

Just to refresh you; you said: God calls Jesus God, and jesus claimed equality with God the Father.

But since Jesus said "My Father is greater that I" this will appear that God is NOT claiming equality to Himself. This is tantamount of saying: "I am greater than myself; yet I am not greater than myself".

Ah, now I understand what you are getting at.

Unless you are self-employed, you have a boss. A common term to describe your boss is your superior. Does the fact that your boss is "superior" or "greater" than you mean that he is smarter? Stronger? Faster? Better looking? Does it mean that you are in no way his equal?

No, it does not carry that meaning. He may have more experience. He may have administrative skills that you do not have, but you may have far greater capabilities to contribute.

The trinity is made up of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Al;l are equal but have differing roles. In addition, the quote that you used comes from when Jesus came to earth as a man, and as a man had to be perfectly obedient as a man. To be a perfect man, He had to be fully submitted to the Father as any of us are supposed to be.

Phil 2:8
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
NKJV

If he had not submitted Himself to the father, He would not have been a perfect man and would not have been qualified as a the Messiah. But though He was submitted, and in a positional role the Father was greater, He did not cease being equal:

Phil 2:5-7
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
NKJV

Criado · Mar 8, 2009, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Ah, now I understand what you are getting at.

Unless you are self-employed, you have a boss. A common term to describe your boss is your superior. Does the fact that your boss is "superior" or "greater" than you mean that he is smarter? Stronger? faster? better looking? Does it mean that you are in no way his equal?

No, it does not carry that meaning. He may have more experience. he may have administrative skills that you do not have, but you may have far greater capabilities to contribute.

The trinity is made up of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Al;l are equal but have differing roles. In addition, the quote that you used comes from when Jesus came to earth as a man, and as a man had to be perfectly obedient as a man. To be a perfect man, He had to be fully submitted to the Father as any of us are supposed to be.
[/I]

This is irrelevant. You are dealing with two persons in your example--the employee and the employer; BUT you are claiming that Jesus and Father is the same.

If Jesus is also Father what is to be summitted when He owns Himself?
If Jesus is also Father, I do not believe that is obedience. It is called self-serve as you only do your own desire. Obedience is doing the order of someone whether you like it or not.

When Jesus said " My Father is greater than I", do you agree that Jesus is greater than His Father?

Does EVERYTHING Father knows, Jesus knows?

ERRATUM: I mean do you agree that Father is greater than Jesus?

Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Criado

This is irrelevant. You are dealing with two persons in your example--the employee and the employer; BUT you are claiming that Jesus and Father is the same.

Jesus and the Father are two persons of the trinity. One God, three persons.

When Jesus said " My Father is greater than I", do you agree that Jesus is greater than His Father?

Answered in my last post.

Criado · Mar 8, 2009, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Jesus and the Father are two persons of the trinity. One God, three persons.

BUT in your example, the employer and the employee are not the same entity.

Answered in my last post.

Sorry but I would like to hear a more explicit answer otherwise, I will think you're evading. It's just a matter of yes or no. Is it very difficult to type?

And Again,

When Jesus said " My Father is greater than I", do you agree that FAther is greater than Jesus?

Does EVERYTHING Father knows, Jesus knows?

Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Criado

BUT your in example, the employer and the employee are not the same entity.

Yep - and Jesus and the father are two distinct persons within the trinity.

Sorry but I would like to hear a more explicit answer otherwise, I will think you're evading. It's just a matter of yes or no. Is it very difficult to type?

Just asking me to answer the same question again gets you the same answer. If you want additional clarification, ask a question specific to that request.

Criado · Mar 8, 2009, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Yep - and Jesus and the father are two distinct persons within the trinity.

I am talking about the irrelevance of your example compare to your claim that Father and Jesus are same. Anyway, just let it be if you can't get what I mean.

Just asking me to answer the same question again gets you the same answer. If you want additional clarification, ask a question specific to that request.

Clarification request you want? Clarification request you get? This is my clarification question: Is it a yes or a no?

Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Criado

I am talking about the irrelevance of your example compare to your claim that Father and Jesus are same.

I never said that Jesus and the father were the same person. Quite the contrary. I said many times that they are two distinct persons of the trinity.

Clarification request you want? Clarification request you get? This is my clarification question: Is it a yes or a no?

I don't see how that can be answered yes or no. You seem to be starting with a premise that I have never said nor agree with.

Criado · Mar 8, 2009, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

I never said that Jesus and the Father were the same person. Quite the contrary. I said many times that they are two distinct persons of the trinity.

I neither said you said it. I just said "the same". And that is not applicable to your example. Just to quote one line: Does the fact that your boss is "superior" or "greater" than you mean that he is smarter.

If Jesus is also the Father, it would appear: Does the fact that God is "superior" or "greater" than Himself mean that God is smarter?

It makes no sense.

You seem to be starting with a premise that I have never said nor agree with.

That's why I am asking.

I don't see how that can be answered yes or no. You seem to be starting with a premise that I have never said nor agree with.

I understand you... caught in between.

You cannot answer yes because you know I will ask you how come God is greater than Himself? And you answer no, you will blatantly defy Christ. This question can be properly answered only if they are separate entity and God.

I guess that's why you neither answering the question: Does EVERYTHING Father knows, Jesus knows?

Tj3 · Mar 8, 2009, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Criado

I neither said you said it. I just said "the same". And that is not applicable to your example. Just to quote one line: Does the fact that your boss is "superior" or "greater" than you mean that he is smarter.

If Jesus is also the Father, it would appear: Does the fact that God is "superior" or "greater" than Himself mean that God is smarter?

It makes no sense.

What makes no sense to you?

I understand you... caught in between.

You cannot answer yes because you know I will ask you how come God is greater than Himself?

No, I just don't understand why you are having difficulty on this point.

arcura · Mar 8, 2009, 06:39 PM

Criado,
I must agree with Tj3.
The eternal word of God became man so that he personally could experience what being a human was like.
As such in a human body and acting as a human he saoid that the Father is greater than I as a human.
That does NOT mean that as the divine being of The Word that The Father is greater.
As an eternal divine being The Word id equal to the Father and The Holy Spirit for they all ARE One God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

classyT · Mar 9, 2009, 07:51 AM

Fred,

You just agreed with Tj3. I'm scared. LOL ;)

Tj3 · Mar 9, 2009, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by classyT

Fred,

you just agreed with Tj3. I'm scared. LOL ;)

I think that you should be. Who knows, maybe next Akoue will agree with me sometime :eek:

arcura · Mar 9, 2009, 07:47 PM

classyT,
Over the years I have agreed with Tom (Tj3) many times anf he with me.
We do have differences and I don't expect that to change soon.
But that's OK. Tom is a friend of Jesus and any friend of Jesus is a friend of mine.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3 · Mar 9, 2009, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by arcura

classyT,
Over the years I have agreed with Tom (Tj3) many times anf he with me.
We do have differences and I don't expect that to change soon.
But that's OK. Tom is a friend of Jesus and any friend of Jesus is a friend of mine.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Glad to hear you say that, Fred. It was not that long ago you said that I was going to hell. Even then I offered you my hand in friendship, and I do so once again.

I will never close that door.